PPP or Pustular Psoriasis - A Chronicle

[bunnie]

If we overload our organs with toxins, they can't help fight disease which is present in us

If there was even the slightest "overload" of anything, most especially anything that could be termed as toxic,
1) you would be ill, an immune response would occur immediately to anything toxic, and would  manifest as either a specific illness or an allergy.
2) anything at all would show up in blood specs, even if the body was deficient in certain essential nutrients.
As for the blood, that is the diagnostic tool for the body, that is why blood samples are always taken on examination, it determines a diagnosis. Anything at even the slightest varience would show up on a full blood spec.

If we overload our organs with toxins, they can't help fight disease which is present in us.

That is what these organs are designed to do, they are filters. You only damage them if you do anything in excess, such as drinking too much or smoking. Disease of these organs is quite another thing. Some people are of course allergic to certain foods and food additives, again a different matter altogether.

Clean food will give our bodies a chance to heal themselves better.

" clean" food? our ancestors rarely cleaned anything! Neither themselves or their food, that is why there was such abundance of terrible disease, and life expectancy was around the age of 50yrs. Women had one pregnancy after another because infant mortality was rampant. Food presented to the gentry was bad enough, but for the peasants, they were lucky if what they put in their mouths wasn't crawling with something inedible by our standards. I think if you read the history books concerning medicine and diet, you would be quite astonished.
Respectfully, Bunnie
PS. May I just add lin, that really as far as I am concerned anyway, if you "feel" that what you are doing is helping you, then that of course is fine, but likewise it doesn't change anything , nor ever could, that which I hold to be true neither. I don't really think this is the thread on which this topic should be discussed , I'm sure you will agree?

[sierrabear]

A quarter million people in the U.S. are diagnosed with one of the 40 separate autoimmune diseases each year. The more common of these diseases are Graves, rheumatiod arthritis,thyroiditis,ms,type 1 diabetes,lupus,scleroderma rheumatic heart disease to name a few. These are also the primary autoimmuce diseases that have been studied in reference to diet. Each disease may sound different it is important to consider these disorders as a group. All autoimmune diseases are the result of one group of mechanisms gone awry. In this case the mechanism is the immune system mistakenly attacking cells in its own body.Whether it is the pancreas as in type 1 diabetes the myelin sheath as in MS or skin for us, all autoimmune diseases involve an immune system that has revolted. bone marrow makes the white blood cells which are called b-cells, or they travel to the thymus and are called t-cells. The foreign invaders are protein molecules called antigens. These cells can be a bacterium or  a virus. each of these foreign antigens has a separate identity. To counter these antigens our immune system creates mirror images or molecular mimicry. The images may be a b-cell antibody or a t-cell based receptor protein. It so happens that some of the foreign invaders that our cells seek out to destroy look the same as our own cells. the immune system molds that fit these invaders also fit our own cells. the immune system then destroys, under some circumstances, everything that fits the mold including our own cells. what does this have to do with what we eat? the antigens that trick our bodies into attacking our own cells may be in food. During digestion some proteins slip into our bloodstream from the intestine withour being fully broken down into their amino acid parts. the remnants of undigested proteins are treated as foreign by our immune system which sets about making molds to destroy them and sets into motion the self destructive autoimmune process. one of the foods that supply many of the foreign proteins that mimic our own body proteins is cows milk. The immune system uses a very delicate process to decide whech proteins should be attacked and which should be left alone. the way this process breaks down with autoimmune diseases is not yet understood. we know that the immune system loses its ability to differentiate between the body cells and the invading antigen it destroys our cells along with the invaders.
The diseases studied in relation to nutrition the comsumption of animal based foods especially cows milk is associated with greater disease risk.

some of this came from the book I quoted. It is not opinion rather years of research and stats the show evidence how the foods we eat dictate the rate of diseases. I am not the only one who has had good results from eating this way. but wouldnt it make better sense to be in remission or some resemblance but eating a diet that facilitates healing rather than taking pills and potions?? that is all I am talking about. You are so willing to justify diet having nothing to do with anything health related and still you sit miserable with ppp. Mine may well be in remission. as for during pregnancy your body lowers your immune system so that you dont reject the embryo and have miscarriage. that is why so many pregnant women get sick so often. it is the "trauma" of childbirth and recovery with may trigger an autoimmune response. I know the this ppp is in my dna. But instead of taking things a face value and taking pharmacuticals to help relieve or slow progression of disease  i have opted to take a dietary aproach that seems to work for many people.

lin317 The diet I have found that works is a plant based starch based diet. whole grains veggies fruits no added fats very little added sugar. almost everything I eat is cooked. Like tonight I am having garbanzo sheppards pie. As I too am overwieght and still trying to lose. but I have to do it very slowly because I am still breastfeeding.I have like 30 pounds or so.  The approach that I have found is the McDougall program. It is a good guide to what I should eat and not eat. You can go to link removed--please contact this member via PM if interested and view his website. there is also a message board where you can ask quetions. either email me or send me a message and we can talk more later.
Debbie

[bunnie]

hello again sierrabear, all that you quoted in the first few paragraphs is perfectly correct, but then becomes a bit outdated regarding what is not fully understood. I am almost finished a long study on immunity, autoimmunity and my own disease, which I hope to present soon, if not on here then on a blog or something. The following is not from a book but from me...
A  B-cell ( a type of lymphocyte) identifies pathogens when antibodies on its own surface bind to a specific foreign antigen, and this antigen/antibody complex is taken up by the B cell and processed into peptides. The B cell then displays these antigenic peptides on it's surface MHC class II molecules. These MHC's are genes also known as HLA's  Human Leukocyte Antigens, then present these phagocytosed antigens sitting on top of them, to T lymphocytes.This combination of MHC2 and antigen, attracts a matching helper T cell, which releases lymphokines (a type of cytokine) and activates the Bcell.
The activated B cell then begins to divide into two, producing plasma cells and memory cells.

Plasma Cells secrete millions of copies of the antibody that recognizes this antigen, these antibodies circulate in blood plasma and lymph, and  bind to pathogens expressing the antigen and mark them for destruction by complement activation, or for uptake and destruction by phagocytes.
Memory cells are long living  and they remember each specific pathogen they ever encounter, and should they ever detect that pathogen again , they mount an immune response to it. This is called Specific or adaptive or aquired immunity (any of those) because one aquires it over a life-time. One is born with innate (non-specific immunity).  Passive immunity is given, when the body is given antibodies rather than producing them itself. A newborn baby has passive immunity to several diseases, such as measles, mumps and rubella, from antibodies passed from its mother via the placenta. This immunity only lasts for a few weeks or months. In the case of measles, mumps and rubella it may last up to one year in infants- this is why MMR is given just after a child’s first birthday.
It is these memory cells which detect foreign invaders not molecular mimicry.
Molecular mimicry is something quite different and is in part a stimulator of an autoimmune response in certain people only, who carry the predisposition to autoimmune disease. The invading pathogen may express antigens that resemble "self".  These activate the T and B cells, and when the infection is under control, these cells may now turn against self antigens, (the antigens on self proteins)  An exogenous (non-self) antigen may share structural similarities with certain self antigens; therefore any antibody produced against this antigen (which mimics the self-antigens) can also, in theory, bind to the self antigens, and trigger the autoimmune response. (more simply, the immune system responds to a foreign substance that is similar in appearance to a natural body substance and inadvertently targets the body substance as well as the foreign substance. )
This substance would easily be identified in blood specs and especially biopsies, because the individual would automatically have a hypersensitivity reaction to it.  There have been isolated cases of certain foods doing this in specific cases, but the most notable one, and the only food scientifically proven to do so in the last 50years, taking into account the endless vast food chain, is Gluten. In order for something to be a fact ,the same thing , must trigger the same pathological result from the autoimmune response, in a significant number of people, over a significant number of years.

The immune system uses a very delicate process to decide whech proteins should be attacked and which should be left alone.

The cells of the body too have proteins that are antigens. These include a group of antigens called HLA's or Human Leukocyte Antigens.or MHC's.  As these autoantigens are of *self * displayed on self proteins,  cells of the immune system in normal circumstances, recognise them as such, and ignore them.  Class1MHC or (HLA, same thing) carry antigen either A, B, or C of self proteins and  class11 MHC antigen carry a (DR, DP, & DQ)of non-self proteins. That is how the T cell receptors recognise self from non-self.
I am pleased sierrabear that you feel you have found a regime which you believe to be giving you benefit. I do not share those beliefs, nor ever could, because it goes against all my medical knowledge, my training and personal experience. I obviously could never convince you otherwise, nor do I wish to try, but seeing as you started this dialogue I have answered you with what I personally know and believe to be correct.
Respectfully, bunnie

[CalamityJane]

The reason I feel food can help though it doesn't cure is because we have liver and gallbladder and kidneys that clean our systems, our blood, etc of poisons. When we eat processed food and bad food, (read-  new food that our ancetors didn't have like fast food and processed)n thre is much work to be done as to cleaning those toxins out of our system. If we overload our organs with toxins, they can't help fight disease which is present in us. Clean food will give our bodies a chance to heal themselves better.

Hi Lin -- First of all, I have to assume that your PPP has been diagnosed correctly by cultures of the pustules sent to a lab for analysis for bacteria and fungus. These will be negative, hence the diagnosis of PPP.

I have PPP, which has been in remission for 13 months now. For me diet was not a factor, I don't eat fast food (well, perhaps some fries/chips once or twice a year), eat no processed food and have lots of fish. This good diet hasn't helped me w/PPP. My DNA I suppose tells my hair to curl. I can control my curls/waves by using certain products, but it won't go away....it will just be straight for a time. I did change my diet in the hope of getting my skin to respond, but it did not work for me. That was part of my learning curve. If you feel that your diet needs to be changed or modified for overal health, then that is a good thing to do. Obviously if you eat things that you are sensitive too, that's a detrimental effect overall.

In my humble opinion, junk/processed food sort will not help any bodies "body", regardless of skin problems or not. It is in our best interest to eat as healthily as possible most of the time.

I'm happy that you have joined Skin Cell, for information (good and bad) and for discussion. Always helps to have input, which you can take, or discard.

Jane

[,.]

Jane, yes ppp is the official diagnosis.
Thanks

And Bunni wow. I will revert to lurk mode.

[,.]

This user has voluntarily left the bldg.

[bunnie]

 

Maybe you are a DR. and if so why are you here to correct me and let me know what I have to say or think is wrong and won't change your opinion???

Excuse me lin , I do not think I have corrected you anywhere? I am not a doctor.

I have to say or think is wrong

Where did I say you were wrong?

and won't change your opinion???

I won't, will you??

Actually you really tick me off at how you have come at me for my opinion here.

Where have I come at you lin? please will you show me.

just to throw it out for discussion

that's what sierrabear and I were doing, discussing our different opinions, (which she raised, not me) in a civilised manner. I am just as interested in someone explaining what they feel to be true, in fact very interested, but as yet nobody has convinced me.
I was discussing this with sierrabear who left a post for me to answer. I have done that in answer to the points she raised. 

I would never begin to tell you you have no clue what you are talking about but that is what you are doing to me

. where have I done that, will you show me?
Quite the contrary , it is you who is being aggressive, and I therefore will end this right now, there has already been a fracas about this and I would rather not reply again to your posts on here. You may PM me if you wish to continue this discussion.
Bunnie

[,.]

Sierrabear you sound completely sound and thank you for this. I am probably considering my HS more than PPP but both are becasue of the immune dissorder. But I know eating healthier gives our bodies a chance to heal itself. I have researched this too and like Barbs book I mentioned earlier about healing with God given nutrients. My own Dr. tells me our food affects our bodies. So much hormone is put into the animals and then it goes into us. Anyhow, I am trying to avoid high starch, and am making some changes abd may look into what you have if you wish to send the link in pm. Thanks.

what does this have to do with what we eat? the antigens that trick our bodies into attacking our own cells may be in food. During digestion some proteins slip into our bloodstream from the intestine withour being fully broken down into their amino acid parts. the remnants of undigested proteins are treated as foreign by our immune system which sets about making molds to destroy them and sets into motion the self destructive autoimmune process. one of the foods that supply many of the foreign proteins that mimic our own body proteins is cows milk. The immune system uses a very delicate process to decide whech proteins should be attacked and which should be left alone. the way this process breaks down with autoimmune diseases is not yet understood. we know that the immune system loses its ability to differentiate between the body cells and the invading antigen it destroys our cells along with the invaders.
The diseases studied in relation to nutrition the comsumption of animal based foods especially cows milk is associated with greater disease risk.

some of this came from the book I quoted. It is not opinion rather years of research and stats the show evidence how the foods we eat dictate the rate of diseases. I am not the only one who has had good results from eating this way. but wouldnt it make better sense to be in remission or some resemblance but eating a diet that facilitates healing rather than taking pills and potions?? that is all I am talking about. You are so willing to justify diet having nothing to do with anything health related and still you sit miserable with ppp. Mine may well be in remission. as for during pregnancy your body lowers your immune system so that you dont reject the embryo and have miscarriage. that is why so many pregnant women get sick so often. it is the "trauma" of childbirth and recovery with may trigger an autoimmune response. I know the this ppp is in my dna. But instead of taking things a face value and taking pharmacuticals to help relieve or slow progression of disease  i have opted to take a dietary aproach that seems to work for many people.

lin317 The diet I have found that works is a plant based starch based diet. whole grains veggies fruits no added fats very little added sugar. almost everything I eat is cooked. Like tonight I am having garbanzo sheppards pie. As I too am overwieght and still trying to lose. but I have to do it very slowly because I am still breastfeeding.I have like 30 pounds or so.  The approach that I have found is the McDougall program. It is a good guide to what I should eat and not eat. You can go to link removed--please contact this member via PM if interested and view his website. there is also a message board where you can ask quetions. either email me or send me a message and we can talk more later.
Debbie

[bunnie]

Hello again lin, I do see in fact that I was replying to you, and not sierrabear. (I thought it was sierrabear)However there is absolutely nothing in that post at all that could be termed as bunny hopping all over your ideas, or saying that you were wrong, nor a hint of suggestion that you don't know what you are talking about. I was simply answering the points that you raised, there isn't anything at all addressing you personally, neither to your beliefs or your credentials  in my response to you in that post. There is absolutely nothing that anyone could take offence at in that post.
Bunnie

[sierrabear]

Well bunnie I guess I am not as intelligent as you however saying that diet has nothing to do with disease is absolutely wrong. How many people do you think several hundred years ago had ppp or high blood pressure or high cholesterol? probably not too many. every year more and more people are being diagnosed with some immune problem or another. and every year our consumption of animal products too goes up. I am sorry that I cannot change your mind. You will not even remotely open part of your mind to the idea that diet could maybe help your situation. When you said that pregnancy had a change on my ppp you were wrong. I started posting about my diet change way before I got pregnant. And I had good results from it. I even posted pictures. The second picture that was posted was a few months before I got pregnant. And yes after I got pregnant my skin got even better. It has been amost a year and a half since starting to eat like this and I pray that the results wont change. My whole point is the same then as it is now. why wont you even consider trying something like this instead automatically saying it wont work? I know because you know alot more about this disease than I right? I admit I dont know alot about immune disorders as a whole. but what I have researched and tried has worked. I have also talked with several other people who too have tried diet and it worked. but it does take time. And every month I stay true to my way of eating I get better results. My hands look like normal hands and hopefully by summer my feet will too. They are just a little red with some dry patches. But they are better than when I was pregnant.
Why do I feel like I am trying to preach religion or something.
Debbie

[sierrabear]

Bunnie you also stated that T. Colin Campbell stood alone in his thinking and that is not the case. There is dr mcdougall john robbins (who happens to be aire to the baskin robbins ice cream chain and will not run because he knows the dangers of consuming dairy) dr barnard. Just to name a few. There is also the pcrm-physians commitee for responsible medicine.
As for the gluten you talked about there was an article in the nih site that talked about people with psoriasis to also get tested for gluten sensitivity since one has something to do with the other. And since we have  immune system in our intestines wouldnt it make some sense that the food we eat could very well determine our outcome?
Debbie

[sierrabear]

Jane I dont know exactly what you eat or not, however fish has lots of fat and protien in it. and even if you dont eat anything processed there is so much in the foods we eat that are made by food producers. for instance non dairy creamer has sodium casinate which comes from milk(non dairy huh?) and several loaves of bread from different manufactures have casinate and whey which come from milk also. so even if you dont drink milk per say you may still be comsuming dairy.And alot of vegetarian foods also have animal products in them. and as for french fries some places like mcdonalds add whey to their fry oil to make them taste a certain way. Just a thought.
Debbie

[LIGA girl]

I have to say here that some people have allergic reactions to food that are very bad eg peanut allergy can give some an anaphylactic reaction, we know about gluten and its ability to cause dermatitis herpetiformis and I know one woman who had a skin reaction to fish that was so bad she had to take prednisone for a year afterwards. So a lesser reaction could create or exacerbate any skin condition I am sure. In my case I am on heavy duty meds so if I changed my diet and my skin improved what caused that improvment, the diet or the meds? the meds are stronger so I would say them.

However, since I got my skin disease I have improved my diet and I am sure that has helped me maintain better health in the face off the meds I take which are damaging in themselves. My doctors and a dietitian I saw once also agree with that. I have not gained as much weight as most people on prednisone, I have stayed off BP meds, have not developed diabetes and have lowered my cholesterol (I was warned the meds could all adversely affect my health in those ways and were highly likely to). If (when) I ever get off my meds I can experiment with diet and its effects on my skin in a more controlled way and am going to do so.

The docs don't fully know how the immune system works and will not make a statement that they cannot back up with proven research, but I have had so many docs say to me "we don't know why this happens" in relation to certain workings of the immune system. When they know all the answers we will all be better off, in the meantime I think we should all try to improve our health in any way we can, and diet can definitely do that.

cheers
LG

[,.]

Cheers to you to! Dr.s are very smart to have that attitude. Hmmmm

The docs don't fully know how the immune system works and will not make a statement that they cannot back up with proven research,

[bunnie]

Hi sierrabear, I have just lost a long reply to your post, and the fact that it is now almost 2 am  here in the UK, and in consideration what has been posted since your post to me, I have decided not to reply at all. There is just too much to answer here. I will say however that the only main part of research today in autoimmunity that is not yet fully understood, is on regulatory t cells. That is about the only part of autoimmunity that is not yet fully understood, yet even that is vast, because malfunction of these particular cells causes further co stimulory malfunctions in other cells, rather like a cascade.
We were having a civilised discussion,you and I sierrabear, and I am willing to continue it privately with you, if you wish?
Bunnie

[CalamityJane]

Jane I dont know exactly what you eat or not, however fish has lots of fat and protien in it. and even if you dont eat anything processed there is so much in the foods we eat that are made by food producers. for instance non dairy creamer has sodium casinate which comes from milk(non dairy huh?) and several loaves of bread from different manufactures have casinate and whey which come from milk also. so even if you dont drink milk per say you may still be comsuming dairy.And alot of vegetarian foods also have animal products in them. and as for french fries some places like mcdonalds add whey to their fry oil to make them taste a certain way. Just a thought.
Debbie

Thank you for your thoughts.....yes I agree fish has some fat -- I need some fat, and I need some protein. I've also been a vegetarian in my life. I don't have a sensitivity to dairy, and can honestly say, that except for once or twice a year, I do not eat fried foods. I am not, and have never been overweight. I am very conscious of what I eat, and what suits my body. I also eat lentils and beans. Everyone IMO needs to be aware of what they eat, aware of their blood work numbers and their BP numbers.

In some diseases I do believe diet can be a factor, but I also believe that with autoimmune diseases, my PPP diet is not a factor (in fact I was told this by the derms/docs).If I ate processed food, fast food, fried foods on a regular basis, I probably would get fat, but I would not 'get' PPP. However, I could I suppose get pimples/acne. It so happens that I do not like those foods, nor do I like or eat cookies, muffins, ice cream, cake or chocolate *ever*. I don't do that for my skin, I don't eat it because I don't like it. My PPP is like my curly hair, it just is.

My PPP has been in remission for 14 months.

Jane

[PaulBeck]

Hi ALL...
  I don't often post in this thread any more, as much of it has become a never ending exercise in the art of semantic argument.  There.  I said it.  And THAT IS A SHAME!  I have cited the connection between diet and disease repeatedly, with properly documented references to persons with IMPECCABLE credentials, such as Dr. Walter Willett.  That was the original concept of this thread, which has been all but lost.  In the simplest terms it seems to me one can take the 'poison, burn & cut' approach of modern medicine, or combine those treatments with the added value of eating good food, with the hope that maybe one day there will be lasting remission or recovery.
  Thank you Sierrabear for your bold challenge.  I too spent years tweaking my diet and MY SKIN IS PERFECTLY CLEAR - STILL.  Without doubt there are many still sick, and some who cannot be helped by even the most extreme dietary changes.
  When I get a minute between responsibilities and obligations, I'll take some time to respond to you MIDWESTERNERS as I lived in North Platte, Nebraska for two years and discovered a few interesting things about my health while I was there that could raise an eyebrow or two.
  Best wishes to all IN YOUR SEARCH FOR A PERSONAL SOLUTION and try to keep an open mind.  To those who have also found tremendous value in dietary changes... keep up the good work.
  Vigorous debate and open-minded discussion was always welcome here.  But the finely granulated proselytizing really must end, don't you think?  It's just not warm & fuzzy here any more.  It's getting all cold & prickly.
Later!
K

[Nick]

And on that rather downbeat note I think that the PPP thread has come to a rather unsavoury end and no longer serves a constructive purpose.
The topic has become so large that it has too many sub-sections to be considered useful.

I have now locked this thread. Feel free to start up more specific threads about PPP if you would like to.