why I'm here

[totalfolly]

You could just send a mod a pm moeim?

We also have a board specifically for questions about forum/chat room problems.  Post your question to the Oi Admin board http://www.skincell.org/community/index.php/board,7.0.html and someone who knows the answer will be along to help.

totalfolly

[Moeim2]

Hello Everyone,

Go to my profile and read it.  I understand that per your rules, I can't talk via posts about what I do and I'm complying, but new members aren't going to see the directions to go to my profile.   I don't know if what I do can help anyone here...or Paul for that matter.  But, go to my profile and read my introduction post.  And Total Folly and other moderators, if I suffered from some of these horrific skin conditions...which I concede, I don't...but if I did, I would want to try anything that might help. I would also expect that my support group would allow me to consider other options and make my own decisions about trying something or not.  I understand that you want to protect your members from "snake oil salesmen", but sometimes, you may be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".   I don't make claims about what it will do, but what it "might" do.  Meanwhile, no money is being exchanged here, so what is the problem?  I can't stand seeing all these posts from members that are going thru hell, and not be allowed to offer something to try.  This is so frustrating...

Also, the ectodermaldysplasia forum has asked me to write an article for their newsletter and I have received inquiries about samples, which tells me that their members are open to considering non-traditional treatments. 

And Bunnie,

I know you base your input on verified medical science but nature existed before doctors so please keep an open mind about alternative options?  And I hope you remain on this forum as a participating member because you have a lot of knowledge to share with all of us.  We may not always agree with each other's opinions, but that's what stimulates us to share our views!  Life would be such a bore, if everyone thought the same

blessings,
maureen

P.S.  Please don't kick me off for this post.  I sincerely enjoy the posts from everyone.

[bunnie]

And Bunnie,
I know you base your input on verified medical science but nature existed before doctors so please keep an open mind about alternative options? 

Hi Moeim,  With all due respect I don't know why you see the need to address me personally. You do not need me to endorse what you hold to be true.
Indeed I agree entirely with the statement that although we disagree that maybe through the interchange of views we may reach a better understanding. That goes without saying really. Unfortunately nobody as yet, has ever been able to explain the theory behind the practice, not to my own personal (I stress) satisfaction. It may well be acceptable to others, I am not disputing that.
If you read my statement in the Rant &Rave it states some of the reasons why I cannot advocate alternative medicine. I have explained the seriousness of advocating the sole use of alternatives many times, and also explained how it cannot alter this genetic fault. Would you explain to me how it can, because I would truly like to know and understand your point of view?

but nature existed before doctors so please keep an open mind about alternative options?

My education and experience in the medical field would not allow me personally, to ever have an open mind concerning alternative medicine to treat autoimmune diseases, or hereditary ones.
I am not disputing the fact, (nor ever have)  that this alternative approach may help some cases topically, to soothe and ease. I myself use coconut oil as such. I do not accept that alternatives can help the disease itself, either topically or systemically, and there is very little to no medical scientific proof that it can.
I don't remember whose post I saw that said something to the effect that alternative medicine has been practised for over 300 years. Well in fact as we all know it is far longer than that. Technology however and medical science has moved on a-pace since those times, and bear in mind, that the expectancy of life longevity was 30 years. If one was 50 years old one was considered really old! People are living twice as long now due to a healthy and sufficient diet and medical intervention when necessary.
It is also true that many medicines are made from or derived from plants etc.
What is totally different, is our understanding in  anatomy, physiology and histology, of the body, and indeed there is much to learn still, especially concerning genetics and the chemical signalling cells of the immune system.
I was talking with three consultants today on this subject, and a cure, or let us say more correctly a permenant remission, boils down to the genes responsible being isolated, and disabled in some way. This is where the research is at now. The only thing to alter that genetic process is through a drug capable of doing that. The drugs used now in these abnormal responses are in fact "killing the messenger" cell, or suppressing it, making it unable to secrete, which by doing so it normally stimulates the production of antibodies. It cannot relay the "message" if the drug has immobilised it.
My own personal real concerns are for people opting from taking medical advice to only that of alternatives.
respectfully bunnie.
ps I trust there is nothing in this post which can be interperated as being dismissive in any way, that is not, or ever my intent. 

[Moeim2]

Hi Bunnie,

I think you are right.  I do need to explain my point of view better regarding alternative medicine.  Most definitely, I do not suggest using essential oil blends or other alternative treatments in place of traditional pharmaceuticals...especially if you suffer from a chronic condition and you need it for survival.   I also will not say that alternative therapies are a cure for anything.  But I do believe they can compliment traditional medicine.  Even Kendall, who has ED and uses the cream, combines it with her prescription yeast medicine and has found that the results are better when they are used together, then when only the prescription is used.  But she is only one person.  That is why I want other people to try it and see if it helps them in any way as well.  Of course it is a topical preparation and cannot change how someone's immune system is wired.

However, if someone is using a prescription and it isn't helping at all, they will stop using it and try another pharmaceutical.  They will keep trying other pharmaceuticals until one does work.  If none work, then I say try something non-traditional, and if that product doesn't work, then try another...and so on.  And of course, maybe nothing in the universe can help their condition and they are stuck, suffering forever.  I am optimistic and prefer to believe that even if a condition is irreversible, perhaps there will be a product that at least offers limited relief which is better than no relief.  That is why my focus is on skin conditions, and not chronic diseases.  Even doctors prescribe topical products for skin conditions and they often work very well.  That doesn't mean that something natural couldn't help in some way, though.  I'm not a doctor.  But let's use chemo as an example.  If someone has cancer and is going thru chemo, they may get nauseous, so maybe inhalation of peppermint essential oil or ginger essential oil or either of these in tea form, may provide relief from that symptom, but obviously can't take away the cancer or the need for chemo.  These two herbs, as well as Chamomile have been used for nausea, colic and menstrual cramps for a lot longer than hospitals have existed.  When I have muscle pain, I could take aspirin or motrin which can cause stomach bleeding if taken on an empty stomach or if I choose to drink a couple glasses of wine, or I can take my muscle balm product...get relief, spare my stomach lining and enjoy my wine!  I guess I'm just selfish that way...

I have chronic insomnia.  I could take a sleeping pill provided by my doctor or I could try something herbal.  I use two products to deal with this.  One is Alluna, which contains Valerian and Hops extract and Sleep MD which contains Valerian and many other herbs that have sedative properties.  Both are effective for mind chatter and anxiety and work very well for me.  Since they're effective, why would I take a pill that could kill me if I misused it, or if I had a bad heart and didn't even know it? 

Another concern is that traditional pharmaceuticals often have potential side effects.  If a natural remedy works, I prefer it to a prescription that could stop my breathing or give me heart damage.  But I use prescriptions when they're necessary and the only option.

Blessings,
maureen

[totalfolly]

Well stated, Bunnie.

totalfolly

[bunnie]

Hi Moeim,

If someone has cancer and is going thru chemo, they may get nauseous, so maybe inhalation of peppermint essential oil or ginger essential oil or either of these in tea form, may provide relief from that symptom,

People don't neccessarily have to have cancer  for to receive chemo Moeim. Many of these autoimmune diseases are just like cancer, except the cells are not cancerous . That is why such treatments are offerred for severe cases of autoimmune disease to suppress as in cancer.
I have had two lots of chemo Moeim, and I can assure you that the very thought of either of those preperations would really make somebody vomit. Is this something you have read or experienced? Anything remotely food orientated, is enough to make you vomit, you can't even stand the sight of it. The nausea is something i hope you never have to feel, it is distinct and so severe you just want to die.We all had an anti emitic injected into the venflow, usually Stemitil, quite powerful stuff. 
Strangely at 11am the nurses would bring round a glass of medium sherry, for morale you know! I usually managed that! and I lived off midget gems! little boiled gum sweets! Don't ask me why, but it was a standing joke on the ward!

Another concern is that traditional pharmaceuticals often have potential side effects.  If a natural remedy works, I prefer it to a prescription that could stop my breathing or give me heart damage.

This is a typical point moeim and why we can never agree. I fully understand all about the natural benefits of things, and who wouldn't prefer to take something that may not have side affects, no matter what?
The point I am trying to make is that autoimmune diseases are chronic illnesses, that means lasting a long time or for life, and the trouble is to get these conditions under control, especially the idiopathic ones, is often very very difficult, and the symptoms are often very severe indeed. Life threatening in fact in some cases , and in various degrees of life changing.
Using an inhilation of peppermint for eg, to ease a queesy tummy is one thing, but easing the side affects of drugs which are in the process of killing half your immune system, is quite another. Do you see my point?  You cannot lift your head off the pillow, you feel as if you are the colour green, and you feel too as if you are "outside yourself." It is a nausea all of its own. These wards are piteous places, all ages, and yet there is a jollity about them, because everybody is in the same boat. Some come ashore others sadly don't.
Another situation regarding pain. There are more nerve fibers  (about 1.2million in fact)in your eye than anywhere else in your body. When my eyes were blistering and of course blisters burst, this exposed these nerves of the eye. Can you possibly imagine the pain! Listed in most medical books as unrelenting severe pain, it just doesn't go away until the tissue grows back over. I was given immediately on arrival at the hospital the largest dose of Pethidine 100mls every four hours. This resulted in being basically asleep for most of the day. Not to mention my eyes perforating 5 times altogether, flat eye and all the fluid from inside the eye running down my face. Exactly like a balloon full of water bursting. Where in all of this can alternative medicine possibly make a difference?
Most importantly Moeim many of us simply do not have a choice. We are between a rock and a hard place, the drugs can kill you, maybe causing no ill effect in the early years, and even though they have been stopped for many years, problems can occur in later life directly from those drugs. The thing is quality of life is at the time often preferable to longevity.
I am not saying Moeim that alternatives may not ease minor situations, but that is not what I am referring to in my posts. I am referring to those who have severe disease.
A person may think they have a really bad problem, until they see just how really bad it could be, whether it is autoimmune or not.
Bunnie

[Moeim2]

Hi Bunnie,

Traditional medicine is live-saving, but sometimes  the human and spiritual component gets ignored.  If someone believes that dietary changes or supplements are helping them deal with a serious illness then I say go for it.  As long as they are taking advantage of traditional treatments as well, who cares if they are proactive in what they eat or ingest if it makes them feel better?  I would never suggest to ignore traditional treatments for life-threatening illness and use natural remedies instead.  That's just stupid.

When you are suffering from a life-threatening or chronic illness, you need to follow traditional methods of treatment.  But in addition to that, people have a right to use whatever they believe gives them an edge in fighting their illness as long as it's not harmful.  If a member here believes that by changing what they eat or taking a supplement  helps them...where's the harm?  Follow traditional medicine but do whatever you feel helps you get thru it, even if it is "alternative"!

Am I disputing that traditional medical treatment is necessary and saves lives?  No.  Do pharmaceuticals carry potential side effects...yes.  But, if you need them to survive then you have to take your chances.  Do what you have to to feel better.  Don't ignore traditional therapies if they are proven to be effective for your illness.  Use them!  But there are alternatives to pharmaceuticals to address non-life-threatening conditions, sometimes.  It's all about choice. 

Your situation is terrible and you have been thru alot.  You chose traditional therapy and I presume it worked for you.  That's fine and good, because every one of us should be able to decide what benefits us.  But don't dismiss non-traditional approaches just because they aren't in the Merck Manual. 

Doctors and medical science aren't God manifest.  They are caretakers of humanity and are fallible, just like anyone else.  Also, I know chemo isn't only applied to cancer.  If it's necessary to fight an illness, then by all means, take it.  I would!

blessings,
maureen

[bunnie]

Moeim , this is what all this latest fracas has been about, and I have explained in rant and rave my stance on this subject.  I understood from your post that we were having a conversation about how in the physiology sense, alternative medicine can help with chronic disease. Chronic does not mean severe, that word is acute, chronic being long lasting.
I will say yet again, if natural products ease the symptoms of disease, I am of course not disputing that. They may moisturise well for eg; but as far as I am personally concerned, unless there is scientific proof that a natural product is actually improving a situation internally or externally, then I cannot accept it. To give you a perfect example of that...
My derm, a man who has written text books for derms, and renowned Nationwide in Britain; thought that Tocopheryl acetate (Pure VitE) because of its properties when given in high doses, may improve Dapsone induced headache. This is a common and quite severe side effect of this drug, and one from which I sufferred badly, even though the drug has always improved my situation overall. I have taken it for over 15 years ranging from 400mg to 50mg, along with all the other nasties, I have never been off it. We dare not chance it. So anyway, with me as the guinea-pig he did a researched fact-based dissertation on this, and it was presented to The British Association of Derms. and published. 800 mg of Tocopheryl Acetate given to relieve a common severe symptom, known in medical fields as "Dapsone induced headache" actually works! In fact, both from the patients point of view and also scientifically. However, to be accepted as a Scientific medical fact , this same procedure would have to be carried out over a significant number of years in a significant number of people with exactly the same disease, symptom and drug. It will not however stop, control, or prevent disease, whether autoimmune or not.
Only one food in the past 50years tested and proved beyond doubt to stimulate an already present, (and always will be) autoimmune disorder, is an allergy to Gluten. (that from a researchers mouth)
Think of the very vast food chain throughout the world and only one, in all of 50 years of research has proven beyond doubt to be put into that category. This is because in order for something to be proven scientifically to be a "culprit,"  the same symptoms  must occur in a significant number of people, more than 50% of cases, all having the exact same condition, over a significant number of years. 
So you see Moeim I am not disputing the actual use of natural products, but the point that you are not addressing Moeim, is the one which to me, from my experience both from myself and others, is the real danger behind all of this.
1) Some natural supplements actually interfere with these immunosuppressant drugs.
Bloods are taken regulary, this being the main diagnostic tool for the condition of our health.In order for these drugs to work efficiently, the doses are adjusted to the blood specs. If there was anything amiss regarding levels of essential nutrients in the blood , then this would be addressed and adjusted accordingly. The production of abnormal antibody, within the autoimmune response, needs to be suppressed, whilst maintaining a viable immune system.
2) Some people who are reading (not just members of this forum) may be in a very serious desperate situation, seeking answers they cannot find, and not even their specialists in fact. I learned this last week from my derm. This is because in Britain, where Derms are continually meeting and discussing their findings, are not hesitant in sending their patient to other colleagues around the country (at the hospitals expense) in case they may have any ideas or their own experience which may help their patient. The data is published and free to all derms in this country; Unlike other countries whose health systems are run as individual financial businesses. (not sure If I have put that correctly) The doctors are reluctant to share their patients and their data freely amongst themselves, it is their kudos and their finacial gain. That is not an agenda here at all. Therefore the result is , that sometimes, especially with rare cases, a patient here can often have information unavailable to a specialist abroad. Does that make sense? This was the conversation I had with my derm , two colleagues One specialist OPH. and the 4th a visiting derm from Florida USA. this last week.
These desperate few need good sound proven advice. They may have read about the side affects of drugs, then read of someone claiming their disease has been controlled totally by alternative measures, and due to the lack of knowledge and understanding of what exactly is taking place in their body and why, they may choose a very dangerous path. This can have a placebo effect on such people, they need so desperately to believe that what they are doing, is within their control, that they actually convince themselves that their measures are working. This is a very real psychological phenonoma.
Meanwhile the disease , because it really in fact is not being controlled, has moved on, without intervention, and by the time the symptoms have actually become a real problem, there is already a far more serious problem to deal with. So now due to lack of proper factual scientifically proven information, we now have a person  not only with a difficult to treat autoimmune disease, but a more desperate than ever person with a life changing or threatening autoimmune disease.

Doctors aren't God manifest.  They are caretakers of humanity and are fallible, just like anyone else.

You can ask anyone on here if I have not vehemently said that myself over and over again.

You chose traditional therapy and I presume it worked for you. 

None of it! and secondly I had no choice. We all were fighting to save my sight, and at one point my life, when it went in my pharynx closing off the trachea....Autoimmune diseases as I have said before, are often more severe in one person than another with the same disease. Take a child with my disease for instance. There is no difference in the childhood form, but because they are children, it is more severe for them.
I fully understand the difficulties for those in other countries who cannot afford insurance for treatment, but instead of grasping the only straw that appears to be available to them, maybe efforts should be made to offer advice as to what other measures these people can take in order to get medical treatment.
A thread on this topic of ways and means to obtain health care, by members living in countries where health care is paid for by the patient, is possibly a good idea?  and would I think, be a real good source for that kind of information. It would need a good attractive, straight to the point heading so that people who are unaware of what to do or where to go, would see it on the net, and maybe it could be stickied on here! Just a thought....
Ok, people without insurance may have to wait some time, I think all countries suffer from that, but at least they will be seen at one point, and if the situation gets worse they just have  to keep going back and back. I know how awful that is, I lost my right eye because of it.
With regard to prayer moeim, you are preaching to the converted. That is a personal individual faith, and does not (in my opinion)  come into this equasion. Seeing as you have brought it up, you may think I would not see the statement you made on Anthro's personal blog on his website, that you thought I would freak out if I knew that you were pagan; Just for your interest, well I wouldn't at all!   (what does it matter what I think about that, to you? why would I care? )That is your personal faith, and none of my business quite frankly. It was my faith that helped me through (and still does) the difficulties I have faced, and still do.
As you rightly say Moeim, and again I agree with you that people must choose for themselves, but with all the evidence of various treatments put forward, they can make a well informed educated choice.
bunnie
I hope I have said nothing which could be interperated as offending.

[Moeim2]

Hi Bunnie,
You state your position very well.  I also hope you aren't offended by what I wrote on Anthro's blog.  I didn't mean any offense to you, I hope you know that.  When I brought it up, I was new to this forum and wasn't sure what members would think of my spiritual choice, but I discovered that everyone is very accepting of different ways of thinking and I felt very encouraged by that.  I still do. I should have waited awhile before jumping to conclusions until I had a better feel for the views of the members here.   I thank you all for your open-mindedness.  I misjudged you, Bunnie and I apologize.  Your posts are very clinical and scientific which is great, but left me with the impression that your world is very black and white and focused on science with no room for less tangible ideas.  You are full of surprises!.  "nuf said.

We are both passionate people with different opinions and I won't try to change your mind.  There's room for both of our points of view.  Maybe someday the USA will do the right thing and provide medical to everyone so that no one has to choose between an over the counter medication and a prescription one.  But I don't see that happening any time soon.  I think that Europe is much more progressive than we are here.  It must be great to know that you can obtain medical intervention without choosing between eating and surviving.  I think that difference creates a different mindset when it comes to health and well-being, for those who discern the difference.

Blessings,
maureen

[bunnie]

Moeim, there is very very little that really shocks me, and I am in fact actually interested in paganism, although I really know very little about it. As just about every single christian celebration and its  traditions are in fact of pagan origin, I am in fact very interested in it , from the tradition, custom and ritual point of view, and the meanings behind it. There is a very large following of paganism in this country, typically in the country places.
 

It must be great to know that you can obtain medical intervention without choosing between eating and surviving.I think that difference creates a different mindset when it comes to health and well-being, for those who discern the difference.

Sorry I had to make that stand out!
You have put into those three words my very point, and it becomes very apparant when speaking with people from different countries. It isn't a case of which health service is better, all are equal here regarding the health service, but the fact that we here are simply not ever in the position ......
1) to have to seek a specialist, sometimes; as in my own case a specialist specialist! ie:  a consultant specialist in skin, who specialises in bullous disease
2) of weighing up the cost of not only seeing the GP, but the cost of seeing a consultant specific to ones needs
This was the point I was always trying to get over to Anthro. This derm from Florida was amazed that I was being given data, that he himself would have to pay for, and the interchange of information between my specialists and myself. It is all because money does not come into the equasion. However having said that, to give an example.: My derm was explaining that if ever my disease flared again to the extent that it did, he had "a card up his sleeve " . This would be IV Retixumab ( don't know if I spelt that right). The cost of this treatment is £20, 000 , which I think may be in the region of $39,406 USD.
He would have to apply to the hospital trust stating his reasons for wanting to offer this treatment, simply because it is a huge amount of money. Having said that I have had treatment costing £10,000 and £8,000 respectively , not to mention my OOKP surgery. When it was necessary to have an ectropion, to turn the lid margins out, ( they curl under when you have no tears) I was sent to the best known lid surgeon and cosmetic surgeon in this country, who was at Moorfields. London.
 

but left me with the impression that your world is very black and white and focused on science

It certainly was once, very black indeed, but one man gave me hope. My posts are just researched medical information, and what is known with regard to how the immune system works. There is still much for science to learn concerning genetics, and the role that enviromental factors may play in the ability to activate these genetic predispositions. From what I have learned so far , the one main factor most likely to be the culprit are viruses because some genes "they think" are also predisposed to certain viruses or infections, and in that way, one predisposed gene can incite the other.
Just to prove that my world is not black and white, (though it is in some things) and just for the record I am a very spiritual person in the true sense of the word.  Years ago around 1983? I had a very very bad back, I couldn't even crawl to the loo, it was agony! (and the curse of all nurses) However at the time I was running my hotel. I was really in pain, couldn't turn over in bed even. I was lying on the floor one day, on cushions, the doctor just having left. My friend was on reception, and this chap who was booked in  arrived, and said in conversation that he had hoped to meet me. He was told that I wasn't well and if he didn't mind seeing me on the floor then he could meet me! He came in , and was really concerned. He  was an elderly Polish gent from London. He said , "look Miss ... I can help you, I have a Reflexology Clinic in London, and have been teaching students for over 30 years. I had never even heard of reflexology at that time. He came straight back down, knelt at my feet, told me not to try and sit up, (I couldn't anyway)
he took my socks off, and started to make  these movements all over one foot then the other, with the pad of his thumb, moving it like a caterpillar moves , for want of a better description.
At one point he pressed just behind my heel, and i tell you I nearly shot through the roof! The pain was so sharp!. "M-m-m" , he said, I thought as much , "the 5th lumbar vertebrae". Anyway he carried on did each toe etc. took him about 3/4 of an hour. He then asked me to sit up. Well I was scared to try, because I hadn't sat up for over a week! He insisted I try and I was bracing myself for the pain, and nothing happened! I just sat up! I --Could ----not ---believe ---it!  He said now try to sit in the arm chair , and I did! It was still very sore and a deep dull ache.  Anyway, he said sit there for 2 hours and I will come back and reduce the inflammation! Honestly the fact that i was sitting in a chair was to me a miracle, even my friend was blown away, because he and the other staff had witnessed how bad I was. He came back down in 2 hours , and he took hold of my hand and said " do you believe that I can help you?" and I replied that he already had and that I truly wanted him to help me be rid of this terrible pain. He said to sit on a hard upright chair (a dining chair) and he sat on another in front of me, and I was dreading what was obviously to follow! With a towel on his knee, he asked me to put my feet on his lap, and again he did this this movement in various sequences with his thumb mainly.
I swear to you, that I got off that chair as bright as a button!! I couldn't believe that I did not have an ache even! I know it sounds crazy, but that is exactly what happened, and I have never had a bad back since!
So you see Moeim I'm not as dogmatic as you may think. I cannot explain it, I had never heard of reflexology, and although I don't fully understand exactly how it did work, I can truthfully tell you that it did. The difference is you see I do know how the immune system works and how the cells chemically interact with one another.
Maybe you have some ideas as to how people with no insurance can get medical treaments in your countries, because there is an obvious need for this information.

[Bamawing]

Ooh! I can answer that!

In Blue Ridge, Georgia, nobody had insurance, and by that I mean nobody. Medical insurance didn't exist. As a direct result, doctors charged reasonable rates... at this point, the full cost of a doctor's visit in Blue Ridge costs less than my insurance's co-pay!

But there were times when people needed serious operations or something. The popular thing to do was to have a "Gospel Benefit," where a small group of amateur singers (usually in a single family) put on a concert to raise funds. (I hate Gospel, myself, so I just popped a dollar or so into the donation boxes that lived under the poster advertising the Benefit.

Gospel is Christian music with a seriously twangy country sound. Think Dolly Parton singing about Jesus. Now make it at least twice as bad, and that's if a professional does it. Most people I know like Gospel, Christian and non-Christian alike. (The biggest gospel fan on the planet is a very devout, faithful Athiest. I mean this woman has faith. She's pretty darned amazing.) Dan likes the secular version, called Bluegrass. I like the instrumentals... but when anyone starts singing... guck.)

Let's see... I know that where I live now, we have a "free clinic" where people can come and get basic medical care. They recruit volunteers and raise money the way any other charity does, I suppose.

We also have health departments, which provide the most basic of services and charge according to how much money you make. They were serious competition in Blue Ridge, but around here most doctors are used to charging crazy high fees and getting paid by insurance. Health departments provide plenty of phamplets on health issues and little things like the flu shot, birth control, and the occasional antibiotic.

That's about it, although "universal health care coverage" is a hot topic in the presidental debates.

[bunnie]

Bama I suggested in a post previously , if someone  on here who lives in a country  where health care is paid for by the patient directly, could maybe start a thread say in general health, and sticky it. This thread for information only, where people can put forward known ways and means, in order for people to get health care if they have no insurance. Where to go and what to do in order that they do not go without medical care. It appears that some people in these countries actually  cannot afford to have medical treatment, which seems crazy in this day and age. Surely there are means and ways of getting proper medical care even if one is short of money? I just thought any info on a thread of its own would be really helpful, for anyone simply not knowing how to go about it?
By the way I love Dolly Parton, bluegrass, and I adore Bessie Smith, (Queen of the blues)  Mahalia Jackson, just about the greatest gospel singer ever known, (her singing Jerusalem and Just as I am, is (fabulous!) and also the real traditional bottle neck blues, gives me shivers of delight! Sonny Terry, Brownie McGee, Muddy Waters,Howlin'Wolf, love them all! Got just about everything recorded! I actually met, when I was 16, Sonny Boy Williamson, and got his autograph! Our local blues club in NE England , had our own local lads playing twice a week. Their group then was named The Alan Price Combo. The night that Sonny (he was quite old then) played at our club, this local group were backing him. After a truly great night, Sonny said "this group will go far". They became The Animals with Eric Burdon as lead singer, very shortly after!
(bunnie singing..." Cake walkin' Babies back home!" doo.. doo.. too..doo, ..duh .....duh )
Got me going now Bama!

[CalamityJane]

This thread for information only, where people can put forward known ways and means, in order for people to get health care if they have no insurance. Where to go and what to do in order that they do not go without medical care.

Sounds like a brilliant idea to me. In Canada, Province of BC we seem to be caught in the middle, and many services, like podiatry, eye exams have been taken away. Particularly hard for seniors on a fixed income.

Case in point is my recent (first) Podiatry visit -- I had to pay for that, but.......had it been a Derm that saw (no pun intended) to my toe, I would not have had to pay.  As Canadians say "go figure".

Jane

[Moeim2]

Hi Everyone,

I guess I'll take Bunnie's suggestion and start a new topic about health insurance issues.  I don't have much to say but maybe others will.  See you at Rant and Rave!

[Blue Bird]

 Quote from Bunny:

Sonny Terry, Brownie McGee, Muddy Waters,Howlin'Wolf, love them all! Got just about everything recorded! I actually met, when I was 16, Sonny Boy Williamson, and got his autograph! Our local blues club in NE England , had our own local lads playing twice a week. Their group then was named The Alan Price Combo. The night that Sonny (he was quite old then) played at our club, this local group were backing him. After a truly great night, Sonny said "this group will go far". They became The Animals with Eric Burdon as lead singer, very shortly after!
(bunnie singing..." Cake walkin' Babies back home!" doo.. doo.. too..doo, ..duh .....duh )

 Why, Bunnie, you little singing sensation, you. I enjoyed reading
about your forays onto the local club scene.  I couldn't let that pass without letting you know that was cool. 

 Back to serious stuff:
From what I am reading, the health care system in Great Britain,
and the UK has possibly changed relatively recently. I am interested
if anyone can tell me if there has been a changed in the system within the past few years.

The reason I ask is because some ex-patriots who are living in the US
claim that the system in Britain didn't work well, and they are convinced that it is still the same. Perhaps their experiences were from 20 or more years ago.
 
Since we have do have those who are presently using the British health care system, could anyone let me know if there have been recent changed to it that have made it work so well, as it appears to be an excellent system.

Bunnie, you have shared some of the differences seen by your derm and his visiting derm from Florida, which made me realize how the different health care systems work or do not work for the general population.
 
With all of your intelligence and expertise, Bunnie, I seriously think you should write a book on this. I guarentee it will be a best seller. Seriously.

Also a question for Calamity Jane.
Quote by Calamity Jane:

In Canada, Province of BC we seem to be caught in the middle, and many services, like podiatry, eye exams have been taken away.  Particularly hard for seniors on a fixed income.

 Is the health care system changing in Canada? It sounds like it.
Was this recent and what do you think of the health care system in Canada, in general?

 There are some relatively rude Americans, who spout that the health care system in Canada is so bad, if you want to meet Canadians,
just go to the Mayo clinic. I think that is a rude statement, and I wanted some input from anyone who knows the Canadian health care system and can comment for me. Thanks in advance.

[LIGA girl]

Have you seen the Mike Moore movie "Sicko" Blue Sky? It gives an overview of the US, Canadian, French and other medical systems and compares the best and worst features of them all. The US one comes up looking the worst of them of course, tho when I think about it, maybe that movie is not allowed to be released in the US, it is pretty critical of the US system .... I have heard it presents a  slightly biassed view, that, for instance, the waiting in Canadian hospitals is worse than he portrays, as he makes it seem that there is a very short wait in Canadian hospitals in ER.

[bunnie]

Hello blue Sky,

The reason I ask is because some ex-patriots who are living in the US
claim that the system in Britain didn't work well,

That really amazes me Blue Sky! Of course there are always problems, nothing is perfect, but the whole point is that here in Britain we do take it for granted, because we are used to it being there, we cannot imagine it not being there. It is as fundamental as the police service. The NHS has been regarded as one of the best health systems in the world since it's beginning in 1948.
Real problems started when they tried to privatise the system in many ways, for instance getting managers in from other businesses to run the different units, instead of a nursing sister. The running of a dept is no longer in the hands of a trained medical or surgical nursing proffessional, with many years experience in that particular dept of medicine or surgery, but by a business manager, who probably was a manager of tescoes or something. Now there is a huge voice saying put it back the way it was. The treatment and staffing is of course run by the senior nursing sister. The trouble now too is that a nurse cannot even give a paracetamol unless it is all written up and signed and double signed. Most of a nurses life now is in dealing with the paperwork, which has quadrupled in the last few years. The best thing is to leave you this link which tells you everything about it. Hope it helps.
http://www.nhs.uk/aboutnhs/HowtheNHSworks/Pages/aboutthenhs.aspx
Bunnie

[itchychick]

I actually find it stunning that Americans have the perception that the Canadian health care system is so awful...

While it's true that our hospitals don't have all the bells and whistles of private American hospitals, they are a far sight better than the "state" (is that the correct term?) hospitals.  I certainly wouldn't want to get sick in the US.

There are wait times to see certain specialists, because in the eighties there were huge cut backs in the number of students being accepted into medical schools, due to budget cuts.  So, we are feeling the shortage of certain specialty doctors.  Nonetheless, wait times are based on need, and if need is acute, generally speaking, you will be seen very quickly.  There are longer wait times for non-life threating conditions, such as knee replacements, etc, but if you get diagnosed with cancer, you are treated immediately.

Similarly, at hospital emergency rooms, the patients are triaged, and seen according to the severity of their illness.  So, yes, if you have come to the emergency because you have a sinus infection, or have fallen off your bike and badly scraped your knee, you will wait much longer than someone who has just had a stroke or a heart attack, or anyone who has a respiratory issue.  

As far as your question, Blue Sky, about whether our system is changing, the answer is both yes and no.  There has recently been a lot of discussion about whether or not to allow for profit health clinics.  Technically, they are not really allowed by the Canada Health Act.  However (and I'm not sure about why these clinics are allowed to operate) there are a handful of such private clinics in some of the provinces, and the idea is that people pay for proceedures such as MRI, etc.  In doing so, they don't have to wait in line for their turn in the local hospital.  

There are huge strains on the current system, mainly because of the volume of people in relation to the number of physicians, but of course, there is the cost of public health care as well.  In spite of the added tax strain that supporting a public system costs the tax-payer, most Canadians wouldn't dream of not wanting to contribute to universal health care.  The argument in favour of private clinics is that they will also reduce the burden on the public system.

However, the vast majority of Canadians are vehemently opposed to a "two-tiered" health care system as you have in the US.  Most of us find it absolutely appalling that many Americans cannot afford to go to the doctor for basic care, and we don't want to go down the road which might lead the public system to be inferior to a private one, as is the case there.  

The system is in a state of flux at the moment.   The picture is not quite as rosy as Michael Moore would paint (he's not that far off though, and if you haven't seen "Sicko", it's definately worth watching), but in all, I'd say our system compares favourably to any other country's system.  They all have their costs and benefits, and it depends on what that society values....

One of the main differences here in Canada versus the US is the amount of money doctors earn.  When my brother-in-law finished his residency in urology, a big American hospital in the southern US offered him a job that would have made him a millionaire very quickly.  An absurd amount of money.  My sister, as a derm, could have easily made triple or quadruple what she is earning here.... (they chose not to move), but it illustrated to me one of the biggest differences between our two systems.   Here, necessary medical services are paid by the government for everybody, and physicians are allowed to bill what the provinces say they can... there are caps.  (They can bill extra for non-insured services, such as cosmetic proceedures...)  

Now, my sister and b-i-l are very well to do by anyone's standards, and have a huge house,  and two nice cars, and take regular holidays etc etc etc..., more than comfortable by anyone's standards,  but they are nowhere near as wealthy as they would have been if they lived in the States...  but this is what I mean by societal values... here there is an undercurrent of social responsibility, that we should take care of each other, and if that means we do with a tiny bit less, so that our tax dollars can help provide things that some people can't afford, most people are okay with that.  Similarly, it's a mindset that makes a graduating doctor feel okay with the decision to make less money, for the intangible benefit of living in a society that values those ideas.  

I don't want you to think that I'm being critical of American values at all, though.... Americans that I know are the most kind-hearted and generous people in the world, and they would go to bat for their neighbours in a heartbeat, and they pull together when necessary like no other country in the world.  The difference is the firmly entrenched American ideal that if you work hard, you can acheive anything, and that no one has the right to take anything from you that you worked hard to build.  

At the risk of dragging this on way too long, I think it is also a fear of big government... the very thing that the American revolutionaries fought to free themselves from.  It's this unfettered desire to be free as an individual, and not have anyone tell you what to do with your life or your money, let alone a govenrnment which may squander it. (Btw, did you know that Americans are the biggest per capita donors to charities in the world?  So it plainly has nothing to do with generosity of spirit...)

Wow.  Sorry this is so long.  I hope this answered your question?

[bunnie]

One of the main differences here in Canada versus the US is the amount of money doctors earn.

The above ladies differs yet again here. All doctors, specialists, everybody who works for the NHS are paid by the NHS Trust they work for, but all trusts are controlled by government policy. However most consultants have a private practice which boosts their income. Patients who choose to go private, pay for everything from the moment they see him. They do not get better treatment, they simply get their own room, visitors can come and go, and they can be seen and have their operation quicker. That is all. As Itchy said too, necessity, and need, take priority no matter who or what you are. Take Guzzi's dad for instance . His op was postponed, maybe because the surgeon had to deal with an emergency or that another different case and the  surgeon of that patient, needed that theatre quickly. Our teaching hospitals too are full of students from abroad training in our hospitals, and once qualified many return home.
Bunnie

[LIGA girl]

Our system in Oz sounds like the Canadian one to me, from what Itchy has said above and from what I saw in "Sicko". I can give some examples from my own experience which make it seem a very enlightened one too ...

I cannot afford medical insurance, and from the days when I did have it it seemed to actually disadvantage the patients who went in as private patients in an emergency situation, such as my son who was admitted to hospital several times as a child. If he went in as a public patient it cost us nothing but if he went in as a private patient we had to pay a gap payment (what Americans appear to call copay) and he got the same standard of care from the same doctors, this did not make sense to me that to pay insurance entitled you to pay a gap payment as well ....

Now that I have a long term medical condition and cannot work much due to that, I cannot afford medical insurance which costs several thousand dollars a year, but it does not seem to have affected my access to good medical care. There are some specialists who are in private practice who charge high fees but the ones who are attached to hospitals (who are the ones I see as they are the best and can get me cheap access to the expensive drugs that patients such as me need) are the ones I see, and I have found that my GP knows all sorts of ways of getting my tests and meds for free or very cheaply. I did not know this before but then I was not in a position to need access these services, they are there for the doctors to use at their discretion for patients who are in needy circumstances and who have high level medical needs.

To give a personal example about a family member such as Itchy has done ...

my daughter went to the States recently and worked over there for several months, she had taken out travellers medical insurance before she went. She got an infection over there which required antibiotics, but when she went to the hospital she was told they would not treat her as some travellers medical insurance does not cover such circumstances and if she were to pay it would cost her ....$US5,000 ... for a course of antibiotics that here would cost $AU15 (about $US10)! Someone told her that there was a nearby medical service for homeless people she could go to so she did that and got her treatment for free. That story blew me away, I could not believe it when she told me.

We also have some aspects of the British system, I can see from Bunnie's post. We have similar waiting lists for non urgent of surgery and we have overseas doctors who come here to train in our hospitals, they work for the doctors I see who have registrars from the Philippines, Scotland, China, India, to name a few countries ....