Anyone familiar with antidepressants?

[anthropositor]

Life can be pretty complex.  It is natural for there to be considerable variety in the moods we have.  Bliss is an abnormal state of mind. Throughout the development of our species, emergency, strife and environmental challenges have been very frequent and ongoing events.  I have a theory that much "depression" is really a normal and healthy response to conditions in our lives which are not optimum. 

I notice your concern over getting 9 1/2 hours of sleep, somehow as if that were a symptom of disease.  I look upon that sleep cycle as being quite optimum.  Sleep IS NOT just hiding from your problems!  I would sooner see you get 9 1/2 hours than 7.  Doctors too are alarmed about the disturbing trend toward averaging six or seven hours as the new normal.  I have to work at getting 8+ hours of sleep a day.  I sometimes do short myself.  When I do, I try to squeeze in an hour and a half nap.  I KNOW that this is paying off for me. 

I am strongly concerned about the medical perspective, particularly in the past thirty years that such things as intense emotional upheavals have their genesis in "chemical imbalances" which can be "adjusted" by taking one or more of hundreds of psychoactive pills.  I'm not talking about the millions of mental patients we dumped on the streets form the mental hospitals when it was discovered that numbing them out with drugs was far more economical for society than locking them away indefinitely.

Back in about the same historical time period that we were "dumping" mental patients on the streets, there was also a rush to do lobotomies.  The kind of thing that went on in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" was done all over the country.  One doctor in particular, a guy by the name of Freeman specialized in doing prefrontal lobotomies, doing many hundreds.  I don't believe he was ever actually restrained from doing so.  That's many hundreds of people that went irrevocably into the vegetable world.  It was nonsense.  But it was the nonsense of the mainstream medical world.

One of the peculiar things that I notice when I watch the series House M.D. is that the protagonist, an iconoclastic curmudgeon with skill and imagination, still manages to be wrong time after time as he tries to deduce the source of the patients problems.  Sure, he's a fictional character in a medical soap opera.  It's not real.  But it is sobering to realize that there are many doctors out there who are similar to House in many ways.

Notice the plethora of often exceedingly expensive tests that are almost invariably ordered in the circuitous quest for the answers.  And in House's  case notice how often he is certain about his diagnosis, until it breaks down.

Recently, on my blog, I wrote a bit about something that happenned in an emergency room which resulted in a probably unnecessary intestinal operation.  It was certainly an operation which could have been delayed while more reasonable measures were tried.  From my frame of reference, the patient went to the Emergency Room without exhausting reasonable and reasonably EASY alternative approaches.  I truly doubt that this lady needed to be operated on at all.

I think the title of the thread was An Imperfect End.  And for lurkers who can't get my webpage from my profile, the link to my blog Eureka Ideas Unlimited is eurekaideasunlimited.blogspot.com

I hope your doctor pays some attention to the things you can do other than taking a pill to dull the bumps and grinds of life.  There's an idea.  Try doing a few bumps and grinds.  I'll bet you will feel quite a bit better right away.  I expect your hubby will feel better too. 

This IS a physical exercise, and it may well lead you to other physical exercises which may be very beneficial in alleviating depression and improving your general physical wellbeing.

[Bamawing]

I do need to exercise, heavens knows. And I have undergone cognitive therapy that has trained me to look on the bright side.

It's true that most people don't get enough sleep. And I'm not at all certain that the 9 1/2 is excessive. But 12 is. When I've been very depressed I've slept 18 hours a day.

While I agree that a "magic pill" is certainly not the answer, I also don't think I can "think myself healthy." I could be wrong. I'm making strides. I'm learning a lot about my childhood from a detatched view, and as a result I'm forgiving more... this can only be a good thing.

Once I've got a stable job and my life is pretty much settled down, I will see about weaning myself off these drugs. BUT, I won't do it without my doctor's help and blessing. I've already asked him about the possibility, and he said he didn't yet know. Which is impressive. I'm always impressed when a doctor admits to not knowing something.

And it may be that I cannot get off these, and I will be on them forever. So be it... yes, my noggin is abnormal, but people who have diabetes have abnormalities. It's just a case of which organ is affected. I wouldn't tell a diabetic they don't need insulin, and I may need antidepressants the same way.

I promise, when and if I decide to take the plunge and get off these, you'll be the first online group to know. I head here before I check my email! And I'll be grateful for any advice you have, Anthro. Put simply, you rock.

And my nausia has improved a good deal. Ginger helps a little, but peppermint helps a LOT. After two days of sucking on starlite mints, I purchaced some peppermint extract and club soda. My peppermint sodas are yummy and help my tummy. I'm actually getting steadily better... life is pretty good.

[anthropositor]

"Thinking yourself healthy" CAN play a big role in recovery from emotional upsets.  So can coming to grips with many of the unresolved issues of our youth, and in each case, it is possible to overdo.  Eighteen hours of sleep, if done on a habitual basis, does seem to be excessive.  Eighteen hours of sleep in the aftermath of an acute period of distress may not be excessive at all, and may be preferable to drug use, even under the "supervision" of a wellmeaning doctor.

It IS a good idea to come to grips with the traumas of our childhoods, and develop some sort of closure and resolution of that history.  That can take serious effort.  Hard work.  There are some who become addicted to the process of psychotherapy, who become comfortable with the process, who get considerable relief while they are doing it, and who become distressed as soon as they try to stop. 

And the nudging in the right direction with a skillful and astute question or suggestion can sometime make the fifty minute hour with a therapist be worthwhile.  But going to a shrink for years and years?...  When I hear of this sort of thing, I have to begin wondering if somebody is dropping the ball.

It is the same with drug intervention for emotional upheavals.  The concept of correcting chemical imbalances ENCOURAGES the notion that once the particular imbalance has been identified, just correct it... for the foreseeable future with a daily dosage of pills.  There is not necessarily any reason to stop if the pills seem to be doing the job.  I simply don't believe it is reasonable or appropriate for most of our elder citizens to be on multiple perscriptions per day.  But that all starts from being slowly habituated to the acceptability of taking multiple drugs when we are a lot younger.

It is nice to have confidence in your doctor.  But be sure it is not overconfidence.  Sort of hard to tell sometimes.

[LIGA girl]

It is the same with drug intervention for emotional upheavals.  The concept of correcting chemical imbalances ENCOURAGES the notion that once the particular imbalance has been identified, just correct it... for the foreseeable future with a daily dosage of pills.  There is not necessarily any reason to stop if the pills seem to be doing the job.  I simply don't believe it is reasonable or appropriate for most of our elder citizens to be on multiple perscriptions per day.  But that all starts from being slowly habituated to the acceptability of taking multiple drugs when we are a lot younger.
 

I attended a seminar yesterday held by my doctor for patients of hers, she is doing research and wants to get us talking among ourselves to compare our experiences regarding quality of life. One of the issues that came up was about the number of pills we have to take and how inconvenient it is to have to time meals and waking times etc to take them at the right time and with/without food etc, our daily routines can revolve around it. I made the point that I take many more pills than my parents (who are in their mid eighties, I am 52) who have to take them, one for a heart condition and the other for high blood pressure. I would rather see them taking a couple of pills a day than be dead. I would rather be taking lots of pills myself than be dead or disabled, that is the choice that we have ..... I have never been a pill popping type of person until I got a serious illness, sometimes that just happens. I know very few people who take pills unnecessarily, most want to cut them out if at all possible, and so do I, but I also want to be well. 

[anthropositor]

Here is a concrete example.  Early this year I had a spike in my blood pressure which had begun to seriously creep up for some time.  But 191/110 really got my attention.  Still, I didn't rush off to the doctor.  If I had, I have NO doubt that I would have had a Beta blocker or other blood pressure medication ORDERED by the doctor.  My blood pressure WOULD have come down.  That would have been regarded as PROOF by the doctor that the right solution had been applied and that I should probably continue the medication in perpetuity.

Instead, I started to dig in and learn as much as I could about the condition, applied the solid principles of good health and diet, and COINCIDENTALLY, ANECDOTALLY, my blood pressure steadily began dropping.  It isn't always perfect.  But I KNOW people who take several prescribed medications for elevated blood pressure who still have serious upheavals requiring increases in dosage or new things being added to the regime.

Had I listened to the firm judgements of several dentists in the course of my life, I would have had plucked from me teeth which have remained very useful to me and spent many thousands of dollars for procedures of really questionable merit.

Had I listened to the educated judgement of the ophthalmologist, I would have already had a cataract operation on one eye, to the tune of $3500-$5000, and with some prospect of further complications requiring further interventions and more costs.

How many of you have had one or more CT or CAT scans?  I'll bet you did that because your doctor was convinced, and convinced you, that the CAT scan was essential to be sure nothing was missed.  It is ROUTINE now.  The doctor said it needed to be done.  Duh, it's a no-brainer.  You do it!

ANY of you who have had a CAT scan, did your doctor inform you that this marvelous, miraculous and now entirely ROUTINE diagnostic test exposes you to the radiation equivalent of ONE TO TWO HUNDRED chest Xrays?  So much for INFORMED consent.  Perhaps a third or less of these expensive and convenient scans are truly indicated by the facts.  The remainder just make diagnosis simpler for the doctor (and reap the medical establishment a whole lot of money which could have remained with you, your insurance company, or your government.

Have ANY of you who have received a CAT scan been informed of the excessive radiation involved?  I doubt it.  That is not the routine.

[LIGA girl]

Anthro that is great that you were able to reduce your BP  via natural methods, and I am sure that high BP that is a result of ageing and a few lifestyle factors can be brought down that way. My mother's BP has been high all her adult life and can only be normalised with meds, it is the only thing she has had to have treatment for in her life and she is in her 80s as I said, she has lived a healthy life with the aid of those meds. I am the reverse, I have low BP which was lucky for me as being on immunesuppressants has made it go higher.

I have to confess to having a CT scan as I had bad sciatica for a few months a few years ago, it found that I had 2 bulging discs. Luckily, when I got linear iga and had to take prednisone that made my bulging discs go away so the sciatica disappeared. The drugs do have some good effects, many in fact or I wouldn't take them, but I am very much looking forward to the day I can stop taking them. It is a quality of life choice: choosing between being dangerously covered in lesions or living a more comfortable life with less itchy, more intact skin.

[Bamawing]

As strange as it probably sounds in this thread, I'm actually not a pill-popper. Dan has to remind me that there are headache remedies other than lying down in a quiet, dark place and gently massaging your noggin.

Phear not, I'm not in phycotherapy. Rather, my current training as a teacher is helping me understand more about what teachers were thinking, what my parents were thinking, and what my peers were thinking.

I didn't want to bore you with my theory, but you're Anthropositer, and you don't get bored with theories on health. So please accept my apologies for my delay. Here 'tis:

When the phyciatrist asked if I had any other mental problems, I responded "ADHD." Without looking up from his clipboard, he replied, "Suspected or diagnosed?" "Diagnosed," I told him, "and I suspect that they were actually right." (He smiled at this.) The fact is, I have all the symptoms. I recognize my impulses, although I typically don't act on them. (Not always, especially if the impulse is harmless. I can hardly see a giant teddy bear in a store without giving it a hug.) When I was a child, I had an endless amount of energy. I still remember the first time I ever felt like I didn't want to move. I was in the 8th grade, riding home on the school bus. (During puberty, most people with ADHD lose the constant urge to move, although they maintain the impulsivity.) It was the strangest thing, being comfortable and still at the same time. It had literally never happened before. Unless I was reading. Mama used this as a reason I "couldn't be" ADHD. What she didn't realize is that "hyperconcentration" is fairly common as well. When I read, I cannot be distracted. And I typically can't stop, either... Although admitedly with most ADHD kids hyperconcentration is related to the TV or video games.

I'm distractable, even to this day. I have to take notes in order to pay attention. (It's a good thing in class, and a royal pain in the <bleep> at confrences.) It's wierd... it's like I can't concentrate otherwise. I fidget like mad. One of the reasons I'm Quaker as opposed to Buddhist is I can't meditate while keeping my body that still. And nobody at meeting minds if I cross and uncross my legs, pull my feet up on the sofa in Indian style, twist around and look behind me... (huh. I just realized that I do that a lot. It must look pretty strange.) Finally, I fit the requirement of having all these symptoms before entering school... Mama says she'll never forget my first steps - I didn't walk, I ran across a field. She even says I was overactive in utero.

What really sold me on the idea, though, was the lack of soft skills. Kids used to make fun of me because I sat with my mouth agape most of the time. While I still maintain that going to a mold-covered school was part of the problem, I cannot deny that this is a typical look for children like me. And then there were the host of social skills troubles... I've posted about that in the clouds.

Now.

Based on my lack of social skills, I had literally no friends in elementary school. This, plus an inability to remember "math facts," led to severe depression. I was suicidal from 3rd grade to 7th grade... and I wasn't happy in first or second grades, either. It seems reasonable to me that this depressed state during my formative years messed up my brain chemistry. Even so, as long as everything is going well in my life, I'm fine... I just tend to fall deeper than most people, and it takes more to get me out.

I've been in therapy, mostly cognitive therapy. It has helped a lot to silence the tiny voice inside me that tells me I'm no good. And now that I've studied the aspects and laws of special education, I can sense the frustration the teachers must have felt with me. Mama wouldn't hear that anything was wrong, and you legally can't do anything unless the parents agree to it. Looking back, I see how hard they tried, too... they managed to get me in the system with the gifted program, and later offered speech therapy. They tried.

I'm not mad at the kids, either, anymore. I understand how wierd I must have seemed to them. And I'm not mad at myself. This wasn't anything I could help. And I really don't blame my parents... Daddy does whatever, and Mama couldn't face the idea that she had a disabled child. She's got her own issues. (This Thanksgiving my uncle took me and Dan aside and did his best to convince us that Mama is depressed and needs professional help. He failed only because I already knew that, and have asked Daddy to take her in. He refuses, saying that she doesn't want to go.)

So I was definately a mess, and it was nobody's fault. Sometimes these things just happen. Looking back, it was a bloomin' miracle that I manged to pull myself together like I did.

And it's possible that since I've worked through all this, I'm going to be fine now. I accept my inner demons and give them chocolate. Like I said, I'm very nearly fine.

...

I know I'll be fine when I can say the name of my elementary school aloud. I can't yet, but I can think it without breaking down, which is serious progress. And I'm nervous talking about it here. I told Dan and I'll tell y'all, I'll be all good when I can name the dead astronaut. Perhaps then I can get off my "keep me sane" pills. Or not. I'm not crazy about the ideaof being medicated indefinatly, but the fact remains that there are much worse things in life than having to take three pills every morning. And depression is one of those things.

I'm getting there.

[anthropositor]

A great many people have found school to be quite excruciating and difficult to adjust to.  Sometimes this is BECAUSE school is excruciating and difficult to adjust to AND the school authorities are often oblivious to the needs of the individual.  The school has the primary purpose not just to educate, but to condition students to "fit in," to conform to the dictates of the system, to prepare the child to be a member of a very strange and challenging industrial environment.  Some kids are considerably more resistant to such conditioning than others.  Pinning down the reasons why a child is troubled is often far more difficult than just applying a handy label and giving the kid some pills to pop.

As you get older, you will probably find that the traumas of youth lose much of the intensity that they once had.  That is fortunate because aging carries some baggage of its' own.  We do not live in a culture in which the aged are honored and respected.  We perpetuate practices and stereotypes which are less and less accurate as time goes on.  We tend to live much longer and maintain our good health and strength much longer.  This is a good mark for science in general.  Not just medicine.  And it is not at all clear that science itself would not be much better off if we had evolved other ways of paying for and governing (controlling) research than the ones that we have used.

And at the bottom of the food chain is... us, clamoring for more "help."

It is often said that when Social Security began there were more than thirty workers to support the needs of a single pensioner.  Now, a lot of people are saying that Social Security is doomed because there are only a few workers for each pensioner.

We already have concluded that these useless, worn out, senile, decrepit old hulks are an incredible social burden.  And often they are.  But it is partly our own perceptions which make it so.  We have been taught age prejudice all our lives,  It is pervasive and subliminal.  That is to say that it is so ingrained that it seems to be irrefutable truth, when in fact, it is nonsense.

I once made a remark about how I did not intend to retire.  The remark was taken to be critical of those who are looking forward to retirement.  But what I was really saying was that retirement for some is not the best option.  For me in particular, continuing to work on the solutions of intractable problems that afflict us all is a better option.

Is it a help to society that I don't rush off to the doctor with every little imperfection?  Yes it is.  Do my ministrations on my own behalf generally work out well?  Yes they do.  And often, my efforts to help those around me tend to work out too.

At every age level, we need more self-reliant, capable people, focusing on real problems of the world rather than on doctrinal and societal differences.  Nationalism is inherently evil.  It separates people.  It says, "Of course we are better than you.  We are --- whatever.  Most of the ravages the world is undergoing today are CAUSED, directly or indirectly, by national conflict.  The best way to deal with our differences is to recognize the things we have in common: The need for food, clean water, shelter, benevolent and fair governmental structures which serve us rather than rule us, these are central to our wellbeing. 

Inspiring xenophobia, frantic fear and fanatical hatred are not productive for any government on the long term.  But on the short term, there is no better way to maintain control of a nation than the threat of "those others" who would bring it down.  War loosens the pursestrings and makes it possible for a whole melange of predatory opportunists to engage in predatory profit taking.  This is one of the central components propelling and accelerating virtually all wars.  Greed.

It could be worse.  But some of those predatory profiteers have found another suitable outlet for their activities.  They have metastasized into the vast health industries.  And they have us by the throat.  Wouldn't we all like to just take a few pills every day and have our problems disappear?  That's what they keep telling us we can do.  It is not so simple though.  Everything we do has a potential cascade of side effects.  The interactions soon become too complex to compute. 

And we, like our politicians, look only at the short term.  The potential instantaneous relief.  But are we still keeping an eye out for whatever might still be producing the many increasing "chemical imbalances" we seem to be undergoing?  Not really. 

But in the meantime, let's take the least pharmaceutical "balancers" that we can and still be able to function.

[Aquababe241]

Antidepressants suck...

And I am talking from experience - there are more side effects that are bad for you than what they're treating you for.  Antidepressants whethere in tablet form or injection form dry out your skin and give you a more quietened mood.  They also add some serious weight gain.

I've been diagnosed with all kinds of things by the so called psychiatrists in this area I live in, but have told them that if there is anything 'wrong' with me, I can treat it with nutrition.  Which I do.  Some of the friends I have who have been told there is no cure for depression are on meds.  They have all put on lots of weight and one of them was unrecognisable from when I last saw her a year ago - She was absolutely massive and when I saw her from a distance in the supermarket - I just took a guess that maybe that person was on antidepressants.  When she turned round, I was shocked, because not only did I recognise her, but she's only in a mid-20s...

What guy is going to fancy her looking like that???

The weight a person gains on antidepressants is not a firm, muscle toned fat...it is very flabby fat and makes the person look ugly. 

So if anyone one's on antidepressants - please only take them short term as they can be addictive and spoil your natural sleep pattern. Also, you will find your skin worse and likely to get lots of candida infection.  I'm sorry I'm ranting on a bit....protein is a great energiser

Plenty of sugar is terrible for your hormones and your mood - if you're having mood swings check out how much sugar you've been having in your food and drinks for the last few days - you could find the clue right there.  But don't tell this to your doctor or psychiatrist - they are not nutritionally trained and will not understand this standpoint at all.

Take care

Aquababe

[Just me]

Personally..I think any man made chemical is dangerous for any human...including ant-Antidepressants. I promote natural and Organic ways to heal.
There are so many different kinds of herbs that you could take for depression...it's not even funny. Some of them are  St. John's wort, Valerian root, Damiana, Ginseng and yes...even cannibus. I'm not trying to promote something that is illegal in most parts of the USA...but....
If you live on the West Coast, you can get a prescription and Legally take it.

Also.. people with depression usually have bad eating habits. Not everyone..but most.
Too much bread and dairy can cause a mental episode of depression. Sometimes too much red meat or potatoes.
It's really crazy and yet amazing how our body works.
 
Anyway, Glad you are feeling better.

[itchychick]

It would be wonderful if we could treat all our illnesses with healthy eating and judicial use of supplements, and there is no doubt that a healthy lifestyle is the best way of maximizing one's health.

Nonetheless, there are MANY diseases which cannot be controlled, let alone cured, simply by eating well and taking herbal supplements.  We each need to make our own decisions on our courses of treatment based on our needs, beliefs, and careful thought and research.

I would offer myself as an example.  Several of the members know that I have a genetic blood disorder.  One of the long term effect of this can be organ damage and failure.  I have the beginings of this damage in my kidneys.   I have decided to undergo what will be a lifelong therapy of *gasp* prescription medication which has been scientifically proven to be of use in protecting the kidneys.  I have opted NOT to try to supplement with the herbal remedies which have been reported to be of value.  In my case, the stakes are too high to gamble.

Having said that, I have no problem with using alternative, non "medicinal" means of treating what might be minor concerns... including cannabis for pain control, and valerian root or melatonin for occasion sleep disruption, and essential fatty acid supplementation to improve the state of my skin.  Frankly, these problems are problems which I can afford to play and experiment with.

I do have a bit of a problem with blanket statements condemning entire modalities of treatment.   

[totalfolly]

I do have a bit of a problem with blanket statements condemning entire modalities of treatment.   

So do I.  Thank you, Itchy, for responding to this post far more calmly than I was going to.

totalfolly

[Just me]

Sorry, I wasn' trying to cause problems.

[itchychick]

It's okay, OM.  It's just that some people, due to the very serious nature of their illnesses, often don't have a choice.   

[totalfolly]

Sorry, I wasn' trying to cause problems.

  We know that, OM.  It's not always easy to see that not everything is as cut and dried as we'd like to think it is.

totalfolly

[Bamawing]

Heh.

We're all so very different. I've seen people helped tremendously by prescription medication. I've seen people turn clear around with a change of diet. I myself use a home remedy for my skin, and it works great.

I thought about taking St. John's Wort for my depression, but I was afraid it would interact with my birth control. I took oil of evening primrose for years to control my PMS. After several years of periodic use (oh, that was a really bad pun, there) I started spotting! Freaked me out, too. I was only 17. So I worry about birth control interactions. I mean, herbs have very obviously affected that part of my body...

So I've got several different problems, and at the moment, I'm combating my depression with 'scrips, my PMS with diet, and my skin with vinegar. I'm just glad I have so many options!

[Tuneses]

I didnt read every post in this thread honestly, i apologize. But I wanted to share my experiance with anti-depressants. It worked for me, everyone is made diffrent.

Long story short my father passed away from Dymentia complication. It was hard but anticipated due to the nature of the desease so I managed to deal with the greif. Not even a year later my step dad called me to tell me I had to find a way home quick, my mother was battling necrotizing fasciitis (flesheating bacteria). To make things more fun she got MRSA while being in the hospital. At 26 I felt I was not ready to loose both my parent, especially not one after the other. So I talked to a doctor and started taking some Prozac.  I used it with the thought that I need to resovle my issues while I keep living my life. I have a great husband that was supportive. I managed to sort my feelings out. I used the meds as a bridge and not a crutch. Worked good. I'm at peace with events that have happened. I didnt even use my whole prescription. It's been a year and mom is doing great

Just my story.

[smgalvan]

Tuneses, i'm glad to hear that things are picking up for you! Prozac unfortunately did not work for me. It made me self mutilate. Hospitalized in a mental health unit for five long days!! But it also could have been the seroquel. Combined with the anniversary of my moms death 2 years ago. She was only 36! I have been diagnosed with bisolar, OCD, and post traumatic stress disorder. I some times dont know if i believe the bipolar part. Some times i do. I was diagnosed by 3 psychiatrists! I've been on prozac paxil zoloft elavil lexapro cymbalta seroquel depakote zyprexa geodon abilify klonipan xanax ativan and even st johns wort. I'm sick of this! I stopped every thing and went back to lexapro. It seems to work for me. So i'm like a antidepressant pro! Feel free to ask any Q's on how they effected me. I know every ones different but its good to get an idea. Also helps to know whether your clinically depressed, bipolar, or just feeling blue. They effect your brain in different ways.

[Bamawing]

Bless your heart, smgalvan! Much sympathy for the loss of your mama. Shoot, I'm only 32-ish...

I've been on lexapro, zoloft, and now prozac and welbutrin. The Lexapro and the Zoloft both helped for about a year or so, and then "pooped out" as my doctor said.