Author Topic: Natural wines and other ferments  (Read 23705 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Natural wines and other ferments
« on: Thursday March 08, 2007, 09:16:26 AM »
There is a Kombucha & Kefir thread in General Health that has some previous material on this subject.  Also on my blog there are some essays on micro-organisms in nutrition.

My emphasis is on Spartan or emergency conditions.  What can be done without equipment or laboratory conditions and yet still be safe for consumption?  My results so far seem to indicate that the fermentation of moderately acidic fruit juices or teas or coffees is not likely to generate pathogens or toxins if reasonable care and intelligence are employed.  I think that the level of acidity is involved in the safety.

Cross-threading here for a moment, even cheese production involves certain acidifications in the curdling and separation of the solids from the whey.

But here, I'm hoping we will focus mostly on the ferments of acidic complex carbohydrate rich fluids.  I don't know enough about beer and ale to say anything valuable about their production.  And I am fairly convinced that the distillation of stronger liquors results in greater potential for abuse and health liabilities.  Certainly in the distilling of grain spirits a much stronger solvent drink is produced and the living components of the beverage have been destroyed.

It is in the milder ferments like wine, tea, coffee and cider that it is likeliest for benefit to occur without the same risks which are associated with the much higher alcoholic content in "hard liquor," particularly if it is regularly consumed "straight" or insufficiently diluted, or consumed in excess over short periods of time.

Who else is fermenting things for their own consumption?  Do your experiences compare or differ from mine?  What are the conditions and methods you employ?  Do you innovate and experiment, or follow the directions of those who have gone before, or a combination of the two?  Time for a glass of wine.  Cheers.   
« Last Edit: Saturday November 17, 2007, 07:45:50 PM by anthropositor »
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline Bamawing

  • Administrator
  • Administrative Bleeper!
  • *
  • Posts: 8636
  • Gender: Female
  • Token Nutcase :D
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #1 on: Thursday March 08, 2007, 01:28:10 PM »
We aren't doing anything yet, but know that I'm keeping an eye on these threads. As soon as we get a house with space (read: basement or workshop-garage) (we're going to build after I graduate, promise... about another year and a half now), hubby and I plan to take up beer brewing as a hobby. ;D I want to do some lambics, myself, and I'll be uber-interested in wild (and tame) yeasties. :nod:

* Bamawing does the "I'll be watching you" motion to this thread.
I'm more confused than a mood ring on a paranoid bipolar schizophrenic chameleon in a bag of skittles!

Offline M@t

  • Administrator
  • Admin Geezer
  • *
  • Posts: 3318
  • Gender: Male
  • The World's Happiest Uncle
    • Matt's English Adventures Blog
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #2 on: Thursday March 08, 2007, 05:55:47 PM »
Not strictly a ferment, but one thing I do like is home made fruit vinegars.

My favourite is raspberry, although I have got some blackcurrant too.

Goes very nicely on suet puddings, yorkshire pudding, and I've even made some sauces with it.

The best thing I like to do with it is mix it with boiling water and drink it.

Matt.
« Last Edit: Thursday March 08, 2007, 07:12:17 PM by MattC1981 »
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
The Doppler Effect - Why bad ideas seem good when they are coming towards you at high speed. Don't rush things!!!

Offline LIGA girl

  • SkinCell Grand
  • of Cicadas
  • *****
  • Posts: 3265
  • Gender: Female
  • Me Simpsonized!
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #3 on: Thursday March 08, 2007, 07:59:35 PM »
Anthro, you mention varietal flavours in the other thread ...do you use specialist juice as the base for your wine, or do you use purchased commercial grape juice? It would be good to be able to get the variety you could get with using specific grape types, if that were possible ....

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #4 on: Saturday March 10, 2007, 04:54:33 AM »
LG,
I try not to use "specialist" anything.  I am a "can do"
kind of guy.  I use commercial concord grape juice without preservatives other than Vitamin C (which the wild yeasts really seem to like).  As to the other consituents, they vary by mood and season and inspiration, in the fashion of the Cold Duck in a five-star restaurant at the end of the night, consumed with cold Chateaubriand on rye toast.

Matt,
Vinegars are ferments.  They are just further along in the fermentation process than wines are.  The alcohol is mostly replaced with glacial acetic acid.

Bama,
If I were into the beers and other brews the lambics would be high on my list because of their exquisite tartness, imparted by the same sorts of wild yeasts I use.  

I don't know why, but brewing with grains just seems more complicated and labor intensive than wine is.

Oh, and everybody, I just wrote a letter to my eye surgeon.  There is a copy on my blog Eureka Ideas Unlimited.
  
eurekaideasunlimited.blogspot.com

It is sort of long and technical to go on the Eye Surgeon thread in General Health.  But those of you contemplating eye surgery might find it of interest.
Anthro
« Last Edit: Saturday March 10, 2007, 04:58:05 AM by anthropositor »
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #5 on: Thursday May 03, 2007, 03:09:47 AM »
During the past month and a half I have had almost no wine or Hard Cider.  Just a little coffee liquor in my coffee.  It hasn't had any special effect on me.  I just sort of forgot to drink. 

My blood pressure hasn't gotten all the way to my target figures, but I haven't had any really extreme spikes.

I think I am going to go back to a glass or two of wine a day.  I have been carefully increasing potassium intake.  I'm trying to simplify it as much as I can.  But the consequences of error could be dramatic.  Several minerals are involved in the balance.  Most particularly, sodium and potassium, but also calcium and magnesium and zinc.  And then there are the appropriate pH levels and reasonable ways to test them.  It would be cross threading to put that subject here though. 

Better in General Health on a new thread or on my blog.  Unfortunately, I don't think pH and electrolytes are going to spark a lot of interest in spite of their pivotal role in bodily function. 
« Last Edit: Thursday December 06, 2007, 05:55:50 PM by anthropositor »
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline LIGA girl

  • SkinCell Grand
  • of Cicadas
  • *****
  • Posts: 3265
  • Gender: Female
  • Me Simpsonized!
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #6 on: Thursday May 03, 2007, 03:27:23 AM »
I am interested in hearing about your thinking & experiments with these things anthro. Especially if anything you do impacts on the area of controlling autoimmune diseases. But in other terms too i am interested. I now have slightly elevated BP after having low BP all my life, so for the first time ever i have to try to control it.

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday May 22, 2007, 07:14:35 AM »
Hi LG,
This post sort of slipped by me.  I have forgotten to drink wine or the other ferments in recent, I don't know, perhaps two months.  Sort of lost interest because I couldn't think of anything new to make it better.

I haven't been working on immunity at all since I have no autoimmunity problems I am aware of, and of course I am my prefered experimental animal.

But blood pressure is something that I have been actively working on.  I still haven't gotten mine to the optimum level yet, but I have reduced the highs by twenty to forty points with virtually no allopathic medications.

I am not ready to talk about it too much yet.  Still have to trim the pressure more before I am satisfied that my methods will work on the long term.

And of course, the cataract is taking up a certain amount of my attention.  And the tooth.  The tooth is a biggie.  It could cost a couple of grand to fail with that.  I AM delighted with the results so far, and I am beginning to think that I may be able to stretch out the use of the bridge indefinitely.

Those unfamiliar with the details might want to look at the thread in General Health called Biting The Dentist.  This is a procedure that I have done long enough and have had enough success with to advocate it to others without reservation.
Anthro
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline LIGA girl

  • SkinCell Grand
  • of Cicadas
  • *****
  • Posts: 3265
  • Gender: Female
  • Me Simpsonized!
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday May 22, 2007, 08:24:22 AM »
Hi Anthro

I will be interested to hear how you reduce your BP when you are satisfied that your method works ... though what works for one may not work for all ..... I really think that I need to get off my medications and that will bring down my BP, but that cannot be done overnight of course.

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday May 22, 2007, 03:40:32 PM »
Yes LG,
I should revise and extend my remarks.  Those who have used a variety of complex medications for intractable problems do need to tread lightly and collaborate with whoever is providing medical input, to determine of there is any problem with possible interactions with medications, but my emphasis has been on reduction of added salt, which even in mainstream medicine is considered prudent.  And a careful and graduated increase in potassium intake, both in foods, such as bananas and in the form of potassium gluconate tablets and the use of potassium chloride as a salt replacement in cooking.

But this is not a case of if a little is good, more is better.  Regular monitoring of the resting blood pressure, and a pretty clear idea of exactly how much the potassium level has been increased, and the impact it has had on the blood pressure over an extended period of time is essential.

For those without unusual medical problems who are not taking a variety of other medications, I am thinking that up to four 100 mg tablets spaced one every four hours or so on a full stomach or with a full glass of water is probably reasonably prudent.  Even an eventual level of six tablets, well spaced through the day, with a couple of daily  bananas or other high potassium foods would not be out of line.

And of course, adequate exercise is certainly a part of the equation.  And if you happen to have it available, a tablet or two of potassium iodide per week might be in order, particularly if you live near a nuclear reactor. 

I would not go beyond this without medical supervision unless you really know what you are doing, particularly if you are taking a variety of medications with which there might be some synergy.  It is absolutely essential to keep regular track of what your resting blood pressure is doing.  I used to consider optimum resting blood pressure to be 116/76 mm Hg.  I am now thinking that even lower, like 110/60 would not be a bad thing.  And don't forget to keep your other minerals and trace minerals in balance.
Anthro   
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline LIGA girl

  • SkinCell Grand
  • of Cicadas
  • *****
  • Posts: 3265
  • Gender: Female
  • Me Simpsonized!
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday May 22, 2007, 10:10:02 PM »
Hi Anthro

thanks for the information, and yes, in a case like mine it is a little different and I am not sure just what would be the best for me to do in terms of active intervention.

I just looked up my records and my last BP reading was 133/82 - not too bad. It used to be low, in the region of 110/60 as you suggest as the optimal level and I sometimes went lower and felt quite faint. My docs ask me what was my starting point so I guess that is germain for the purposes of monitoring my progress.

My docs always tell me to keep it as low as possible,  but the only thing they recommend me to do for that to hapen is to avoid salt, exercise and not gain too much weight on my drugs which are notorious for this to happen. I have gained some weight but not huge amounts, I avoid large amounts of salt (I add a little and dont eat much processed food) and I exercise whenever I have the energy to do so, which is mostly very regularly(5 times a week at least). I will eat more bananas as I only have about 3 a week now.

I dont live near a nuclear reactor, but there are power lines about 100metres from my place and a lot of people in my street have gotten cancer over the past 10 years, I dont know if there is any connection between that and my disease...

Anyway anthro thanks for all the suggestions, I appreciate them  :hug:

LG

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday May 23, 2007, 04:18:39 AM »
Potassium Iodide, aside from being an expectorant, is only useful to load the thyroid after a nuclear accident so that the radioactive isotope I-131 will not be absorbed by the thyroid.  It is not a silver bullet.  The other dangers of radiation poisoning remain.

Opinion is all over the map about the dangers of living near high voltage electrical transmission lines.  As for me, I would sooner live 200 yards from such High voltage lines than two miles from a nuclear reactor, particularly an old one.  (I live about eight miles from a reactor.)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #12 on: Friday August 31, 2007, 05:02:32 AM »
I guess I just crossthreaded a bit, putting something about grapes on the cheesemaking thread.  I lump cheesemaking and fermenting beverages together though.  Many of the skills and techniques are quite similar.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday March 05, 2008, 03:07:11 AM »
Haven't done too much in terms of doing anything freshly experimental in beverage fermentation over the past few months.  The pomegranate/raspberry/blueberry/apple has been so pleasant to drink, I haven't been able to think of new ideas I really felt motivated to try.

However, I have been making some plum wine, just a few quarts.  It seems to take appreciably longer to ferment than either grape or the above mentioned mixed juices, under identical temperature conditions, and using the same wild yeasts.  By appreciable, I mean double to triple the time, using the bite and level of effervescence as the sole measure.  I am going to try to speed it up by the addition of some vitamin C.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #14 on: Friday May 23, 2008, 09:55:13 PM »
I now pour this effervescent multifruit wine over about a tablespoon of concentrated blueberry.  It makes the wine heavier and much darker in color.  Sort of strange though that by the time I have fermented these other juices, the total cost is about $5 a quart.  The concentrated blueberry is $19 a pint, almost eight times as much.  I would ordinarily choke on that price, but  considering the high level of antioxidants for my cataracts, I bought two pints.  Sort of makes up for the fact that I cant eat kale and spinach every day and forget to eat my carrots half the time.  Don't wait until you get cataracts or some other health deficit folks.  Get into the habit of eating the dark green vegetables before you have a problem.  And don't forget the orange and purple and red foods too. Carrots, grapes, tomatoes,etc.  I have never had much use for ketchup.  I am now adding generous amounts to most marinades.  The dogs get some in their food as well.  The zest of my oranges and tangerines go into my coffee grounds with the turmeric, bakers cocoa and cinnamon.

Having to pay attention to these cataracts may have indirectly made me a lot healthier, in general.  I think that is how it was with the skin problems too.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday July 09, 2008, 08:32:55 AM »
Nothing new for me in the fermentation arts lately.  Been working on other things.  I have been drinking the wine more as a carbonated Nueva Fresca.

Finally solved the moderate deficit of vegetables  in my diet.  I can eat sprouts of six different varieties, and have not yet gotten tired of them.  On the contrary, I seem to crave them.  I find myself devising new ways of using them on the menu.  Exceedingly versatile in the kitchen.  I guess I'm eating about fourteen plates a week.  That would be about 5 lbs.  My wife eats about half that, but she consumes more cooked vegetables than I do.

My blood pressure no longer bounces around the way it did.  I don't need to tinker with it the way I was doing for a year or so.

Hard to tell how much of this is due to the sprouts, and how much is due to other lifestyle choices, but there is no question that eating a high volume of sprouts has provided another boost for my health.
« Last Edit: Tuesday September 02, 2008, 06:48:57 PM by anthropositor »
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline itchychick

  • Global Moderator
  • Peachy Sunshine
  • *
  • Posts: 3889
  • Gender: Female
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday July 09, 2008, 09:12:13 PM »
Sprouts, hmm? Other than in salads and stir fries, I've never really used them much in cooking.

Those are interesting side effects you describe, anthro.  It's funny, I've just now returned from a nice walk with my little guy doing some grocery shopping.  There is a fabulous greengrocer who always has wonderful produce.  I've been really trying consciously to buy and eat as locally as possible, and in the summer, that's not too difficult.  Today, I was really drawn to the dark green stuff.  I bought baby bok choy, rapini, and something called "baby broccoli" at the insistence of my son (it looks kind of like the rapini florets, but without the leaves).  He also told me that he felt like taking a bite out of the cabbage on display.  I've noticed that I'm much more drawn to these veggies in hot weather.  I wonder why?  I was almost salivating at the thought of some steamed rapini with some garlic, olive oil, lemon and a generous chunk of feta cheese....

On the topic of ferments, there was a really long article in our paper today about how fermenting is becoming really popular amongst a group of nutrition-conscious foodies.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080709.FERMENTATION09/TPStory/?query=ferment+food
It's not the most informative of articles, but it is interesting how the "do it yourself" aspect of it is drawing quite a lot of attention.

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday July 09, 2008, 10:50:52 PM »
I guess my whole emphasis for the past few years has been to eat more food that is still alive.  The homemade wines still have the live wild yeasts in the wine.  It hasn't been pasteurized or been sulphited as have the commercial beverages.  Yogurt, kefir, cheese, fermented tea like kombucha; all replete with micro-organisms.

Sprouts, also alive when you eat them, are the next logical step.  And, while I am experimenting in cooking with the sprouts in a variety of ways,  maybe 90% of the sprouts I am eating are raw.    Then there are some baking and seasoning uses. 

I notice most people eat bean sprouts cooked.  Raw works for me.  I can't think of a sprout I would rather have cooked than raw.  Except maybe broccoli sprouts which I would bake under very high heat until they were converted entirely to carbon.  Then I would occasionally eat some of the resulting activated charcoal.  I kid, but not by much. 
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline itchychick

  • Global Moderator
  • Peachy Sunshine
  • *
  • Posts: 3889
  • Gender: Female
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #18 on: Thursday July 10, 2008, 01:29:36 AM »
maybe broccoli sprouts which I would bake under very high heat until they were converted entirely to carbon.  Then I would occasionally eat some of the resulting activated charcoal.  I kid, but not by much. 

Mmmm! :roll:

Offline M@t

  • Administrator
  • Admin Geezer
  • *
  • Posts: 3318
  • Gender: Male
  • The World's Happiest Uncle
    • Matt's English Adventures Blog
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #19 on: Thursday July 10, 2008, 08:39:20 AM »
... broccoli sprouts which I would bake under very high heat until they were converted entirely to carbon.  Then I would occasionally eat some of the resulting activated charcoal. 

:roll:

That said, when I'm home in Lincolnshire (and there are plenty of raw veg around) I'll eat a load of raw stuff. Carrots, brussel sprouts (at christmas), mushrooms (an acquired tase) to name a few.

I'm growing some more salad leaves and tomatoes this year. The salad leaves are going well. The tomatoes are a bit slow, but that's been to la lack of real sunshine, I guess.

The blackberry vines are doing well again this year, despite my ruthlessness with them at Easter. I may make some Blackberry vinegar this year.

Matt
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
The Doppler Effect - Why bad ideas seem good when they are coming towards you at high speed. Don't rush things!!!

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #20 on: Friday July 11, 2008, 10:12:46 AM »
How do you assure that you will get vinegar instead of wine?
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline M@t

  • Administrator
  • Admin Geezer
  • *
  • Posts: 3318
  • Gender: Male
  • The World's Happiest Uncle
    • Matt's English Adventures Blog
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #21 on: Sunday July 13, 2008, 08:27:27 AM »
I'm not entirely sure that it is 100% vinegar, although I think vinegar is further in the fermentation process, so it's "past" alcohol. Could be wrong though.

If I remember correctly, the recipe is a pound(weight) of fruit, a pound of sugar and a pint of vinegar.

The fruit is soaked in the vinegar for 3-4 days, and then mashed and strained to remove all the solids.

The remaining liquid is put into a large pan, and the sugar is added. All boiled up for about 20 minutes, cooled and bottled.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
The Doppler Effect - Why bad ideas seem good when they are coming towards you at high speed. Don't rush things!!!

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #22 on: Monday July 14, 2008, 05:37:14 AM »
Well that makes sense after soaking the fruit and the sugar with vinegar, no interloping alcohol producing yeast is likely to be able to stand up against these sober sourpusses.  (At least I presume there are glacial acetic acid producing yeasts).  It sort of needs to be that way.  Certainly the first person ever to make vinegar didn't do it by adding a pint of vinegar.

Seems like wine can turn to vinegar because the alcohol producing yeasts are all fairly stupified and the sober vinegar organisms just invade and energetically take over.  That must be it.  Maybe the vinegar yeasts even get the drunk yeasts to turn over a new leaf.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #23 on: Saturday July 26, 2008, 03:52:52 AM »
I had an old bottle of pomegranate/tea which I started fermenting Kambucha style a few months ago in a glass POM bottle.  I wasn't worried about excess pressure buildup because tea, with little sugar, will be slow to ferment.  I had not previously been successful in producing the characteristic kambucha growth at the top.

Time went by.  The bottle got shifted to the back of the array of wines of diverse juices.  I got involved in designing a new product and let everything take care of itself, since everything else was in plastic, which is fairly forgiving, pressurewise, once the bulk of the fermentation has already occurred and the high pressure of the CO2 in the most active and rapid part of the fermentation is over.

My wife decided to be helpful, applying her own independent criteria, judging by appearance alone, that all this wine had all spoiled.  Gone; almost two quarts of plum wine, and maybe six quarts grape, pomegranate/blueberry, grape/apple.  Reasoning?  There was stuff on the top surface.  It couldn't have been any good.

Uh, folks, I believe in a real commercial winery, a great many procedures are employed which result in a lovely clarification of the wine.  They remove the yeast in one fashion or another, and then add sulfite's and engage in other procedures to assure that no further fermentation is possible once the wine is in the bottle, ready to go to market.

When I ferment my own hooch in the kitchen, I do not filter the wild yeasts.  I let them settle to the bottom.  But it doesn't all settle.  Some of it floats.  Quite a bit of it remains in solution.  From my perspective, this is a very important and healthy part of the wine.  I trust my nose and tongue to inform me if anything is wrong.  (And in the case of that fermented tea, a solid growth can form on the top, often referred to imprecisely as a "mushroom."  And my wife's reasoning was, with regard to the tea, was that it actually had a layer Of "dough on top.)

Want to live a long time?  At times like these, do your best not to react.  Of course, you may not be completely successful.  It;s like agitating one of the actively fermenting wines.  Pressure builds up almost instantaneously.  You don't want it to get pent up either.  No, what you need to is wrench your focus away and find some blessings.  Hard to be ****** ( :o Ed Bot! :-X) when counting your blessings.  That doesn't mean go back through your life and try to dredge up some of the high points.  It is better for the blessings to be directly related to the -- improvident incident. 

You really want to play the "It could have been a lot worse!" game.  I had certainly been neglecting the wine.  Even Plastic bottles can get overpressured and burst.  One of them could have made the whole kitchen sticky.   And that would have been MY fault.  Or, an even remoter possibility, the glass tea bottle could have exploded and my honey could have been struck by a shard of glass.  But I still need to find some more happy things, more concrete, not the absence of some low-probability accidents.

She didn't throw away the glass quart POM bottle!  Not only that, she didn't wash it!  And down at the bottom was about a tablespoon of the fermented tea.  She left me something to play with.

All right.  Now I'm starting to sort out what to do with that tea, but still I sense a certain insistant pressure.... Ah, and then I saw it,  The Crown Royal bottle, two/thirds full of absinthe which I made before my stroke, with the assistance of a brilliant friend, now dead.  That is irreplaceable. 

I am so glad my honey only smelled it.  Had she actually taken a sip, the bitterness would have floored her, and she could very well have dumped that too.  So I complemented her on salvaging the absinthe and then went about inoculating a bottle of pomegranate juice with the tablespoon of fermented tea.  Theory:  the organisms came from fermented tea and are probably not the same set of organisms that normally set up in a wine.  Question to be resolved: Will some of the variety of tea fermenting yeasts make the transition to fermenting a fruit juice?  My guess is yes.

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline Bamawing

  • Administrator
  • Administrative Bleeper!
  • *
  • Posts: 8636
  • Gender: Female
  • Token Nutcase :D
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #24 on: Saturday July 26, 2008, 11:06:53 AM »
Best of luck with your wine, Anthro, and thanks for not being mad at your wife. That sounds like exactly the sort of thing I would do... :blush:
I'm more confused than a mood ring on a paranoid bipolar schizophrenic chameleon in a bag of skittles!

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #25 on: Friday August 08, 2008, 06:02:37 PM »
The pomegranate juice is a little slower to ferment, either because I used organisms that had been doing the backstroke in a puddle of tea, or because this juice has less sugar than grapes.  But I just had a glass to celebrate making the cataract monocle for my left eye. The wine is exceedingly tasty.

I doubt I will make it too often though.  Not at over ten bucks for one and a half quarts of juice.  Concord grape is 1/4 that, and has substantial resveratrol content.
« Last Edit: Tuesday September 02, 2008, 06:53:41 PM by anthropositor »
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #26 on: Friday August 29, 2008, 05:17:35 AM »
I have a slowly diminishing quart of pomegranate wine.  Just had a glass.  It has gone from sweet to quite tart.  Carbonation is high but not foaming over.  I started this with the wild yeasts from Kambucha style fermented tea.  I wouldn't be too surprised to see this bottle turn to vinegar in a month or two.  If it does, I'll be anxious to see how it is on a Shmooo salad.  I might inoculate some blueberry juice with this tea culture.  That would be an interesting vinegar.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday September 03, 2008, 02:18:54 AM »
I just had another glass of the Pomegranate wine.  It wold be a crime to let this wine turn to vinegar.

It is exactly dry enough.  I'm going to drink all but a glurg, which I am going to put into some juice with blueberry, blackberry, apple, and some banana puree.  I don't recall ever drinking any banana hootch before. 

All by itself, banana seems like it would make a really sweet drink which would probably be as disgustingly sweet as mead (made from honey).  But these other juices ought to cut into that some.  And if I have to, I can always throw a wedge of lime in the glass.  My guess is it will ferment fast, but may still take quite a while to become dry.  I'll only make a liter.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #28 on: Saturday September 13, 2008, 06:33:50 PM »
It is eleven days since I began the banana-berry-apple hootch fermenting.  When I cracked the cap, it foamed with some vigor.  Had to tighten it down four times before the foaming was over.  From a taste perspective, I can't say it is my favorite.  Still too sweet.  I like my wines on the dry side. 

But in a couple more weeks, I expect it will strengthen and improve a lot.  The carbonation is already just fine.  As wines go, it is pretty thick, which of course, gives rise to a new idea; actually adding some thinly sliced bananas, some raisins and a cup of rice, making a fermented pudding instead of a wine.  Chilled well before serving, the carbonation should make it light and airy.  Even freezing it is not out of the question.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline itchychick

  • Global Moderator
  • Peachy Sunshine
  • *
  • Posts: 3889
  • Gender: Female
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #29 on: Saturday September 13, 2008, 09:01:50 PM »
I can't say that that sounds like it would be to my liking, anthro, (I don't have much of a sweet tooth, and I'm not a big fan of bananas...), but I'm curious to find out how it turns out!

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #30 on: Sunday September 14, 2008, 01:51:04 AM »
I would really like to increase my banana consumption because of the potassium.  It is difficult to eat over one a day.  That is why I consume potassium chloride and gluconate to a certain extent to balance out the sodium load.  This is very helpful keeping the blood pressure numbers in line. 

Even though I am not overly enthusiastic about this beverage yet, it would already make a fine dessert wine for many who like their wines -- excessively sweet.

At the moment I am debating with myself on if I should just go ahead and dump in some raisins and rice.  And if I do that, how about some cinnamon?  O don't really have much trouble thinking the wild yeasts are going to like the rice and raisins just fine, but I don't think they will like the cinnamon at all, which means that it should probably go in after all the fermentation I wish to occur has already happened.

Some barley might be nice too.  I wish I had some hops.  I'd throw them in in a heartbeat.  If anyone grows any hops, I'll trade for some dried Shmooo.  But for now, I guess it will just be rice, barley and raisins...
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday September 16, 2008, 11:53:31 PM »
Well, it slipped my mind to add the rice, barley and raisins, but I just drank another glass of this banana puree and berry juice concoction.  It seems to be thickening without the additives.  It was less sweet, but the extra thickness was not appealing to me.  Now I have to turn it into a pudding or something.  At the moment it is about as thick as gravy, but I like my gravy to taste like meat.

Hey, I wonder if anyone has ever fermented a steak?

(Just kidding!  It would be truly dangerous to make Hootch out of meat.)  While there is a certain aging that goes into some sides of beef before they are trimmed into steaks, carefully regulated temperatures in the food locker are essential, and the exterior portions are carefully trimmed away.  Not only that, the chef doing the meat cutting uses a specialized instrument to monitor the exact condition of the meat as he works.  The instrument, of course, is his nose.  And when meat has been aged in this way, maybe Steak Tartar is not the best way to serve it.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #32 on: Monday September 22, 2008, 07:48:25 PM »
I have just made a jug of tea which I thought of over on the Kombucha & Kefir thread.  It combines half a dozen tea bags, a generous tablespoon of dried Bittermelon leaf and a generous half cup of dried Shmooo leaves.  I added maybe 3/4 cup of brown sugar.  I tasted it hot, expecting it to be too strong.  I drank about four ounces.  It was just fine. 

I wanted to drink some more, but this being the first time I have combined these particular ingredients in this way, I should be sort of cautious.  It already appears that the Shmooo generates quite a bit of energy, and I don't yet know why.  The Bitter Melon leaf was to counter the slight elevation of blood pressure which may be from eating such large amounts of the Shmooo.  Combined with the caffeine in the black tea, I could get more stimulated than I would like.  Frankly, it feels like I have had about five cups of coffee, when I only had two for breakfast.  It will be interesting to check my blood pressure after the chess class tonight. 

I could even make the tea stronger as far as taste goes, but as stimulating as it seems to be, I don't think I will do that.  I don't think there is a problem with any of the three kinds of leaves or with later adding more sugar to increase the alcohol content a bit.  But I wanted to take it easy with the sugar because in the early fermentation I want to reduce the chance that it will overpressure the glass jug.  I am a lot more cautious with glass than with plastic.

I can always add more sugar after the tea has been partly fermented.  That will keep the bottle pressure a lot lower.  And I will leave about a cup worth of volume of space in the bottle.  I suppose I could screw the cap on slightly loose, but if I did that, I wouldn't get the little hiss of pressure when I loosen the tight cap, which is the best early indicator that fermentation is taking place.

« Last Edit: Wednesday September 24, 2008, 04:58:46 PM by anthropositor »
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday September 24, 2008, 03:54:54 PM »
If memory serves, the last time I made Kombucha style fermented tea, I used mostly black tea, sugar and a little wine with the wild yeasts to initiate the action.  It seemed to take quite a long time to get started, and the fermentation continued to go slowly.  It was made in a plastic bottle rather than glass, but I doubt that is of much importance at all.  I don't remember how much sugar was used, but it was probably roughly the same amount.  It seems to me it took several weeks to build up any pressure that I could detect.

I made this jug two days ago and already, when I loosen the cap, I hear a hiss of pressure release, and I can taste the mild carbonation.  I speculate that the addition of the big pile of Shmooo leaves, or the smaller amount of Bitter Melon leaves, or the combination of both, may have had an impact on the fermentation rate, speeding it up to the rate expected for wine. I agitated it a little and poured another little dollop.  I could no longer taste the carbonation.  The flavor is mellow and refreshing, even though I was drinking it at room temperature instead of over ice.

If it turns out to be correct that the reason I have lost ten or fifteen pounds since beginning to eat (and now drink) the Shmooo in substantial, even excessive quantities, both as a vegetable, and as a spice, and now as a drink, every day, with the obesity epidemic that is happening, this could be quite a useful food in the diet.

My own personal interest is improving my nutrition, increasing the consumption of highly nutritious raw greens, compensating for my dislike of cooked vegetables in general.  But if it turns out that it efficiently helps people lose weight without the strains of dieting, it might be a boon to those who have considerable weight to take off.

I doubt that using Shmooo as a spice, blended with your other favorite spices is going to have much impact on weight, but eating it as a main vegetable component of the diet and deliberately loading up on it, eating unusually large amounts as I have, has to be the main contributor to my weight loss in the past few months.  I have not dieted.  If anything, I have increased my food consumption over all.  I have continued to eat at buffets once or twice a week, sometimes eating for as long as two hours. 

I can think of no other reason for the weight loss that I have experienced without dieting.  I guess I'll need to find obese people who are motivated to participate in a study in which the central change is eating a couple cups of dried Shmooo leaves mixed in their other foods every day as I have.  Of course, most of my Shmooo, probably 3/4 has been eaten raw and fresh.  That won't be possible for study participants though.  They will have to consume the dried leaves added to their other recipes.  Since I add it now, in dry form, to just about everything I cook, I don't think this will pose much of a problem at all for anyone who is motivated to lose weight.  Interested people who need to lose, oh say, fifty pounds or more, might want to get in touch. 



 
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #34 on: Friday November 21, 2008, 05:06:15 PM »
I try to learn what I can about a subject by some sort of experimentation before I start delving into the details known to others.  There is good reason for an inventor or innovator to do this, but it probably is not the best idea in the world for most folks.  One must be particularly careful about how this is done.  Fermentation is a good example.

The process of wine making differs from that of making vinegar in ways I wasn't paying much attention to, because my central interest is in homemade wine.  It has no sulfite's and has not been pasteurized to kill the organisms that did the work.  Also, commercial wines have been filtered to produce crystal clarity.  All of this may be more visually pleasing to the consumer, and probably extends the shelf life of the product.  But nutritive value is certainly changed as well.

If wine is made in an artisan fashion, you may findthat the top surface looks like it has a layer of some whitish powdery material on the top surface.  I have never found that this posed a problem to drink, using the assortment of wild yeasts from the air.  On rare occasions, I have seen a few organism colonies form of other colors, like green, gray, blue or black.  I discard such a batch rather than drinking it, just in an abundance of caution.  But I have never been concerned about the whitish or pinkish residues which almost always develop.  I just pour and drink.

The alcohol producing yeasts are very active early on.  Vinegar seems to take a lot longer.  That is why, under natural conditions, wine forms, and perhaps months later, it turns to vinegar.  When they make commercial vinegar, they skip the wine step by adding a culture of acetobacter which sets about making glacial acetic acid instead of alcohol.

It is probably possible to purchase acetobacter cultures to skip the wine portion and just make vinegar alone.  It doesn't hold much interest for me.  I produce my wine to get a much more nutritious product at a much lower price.  But I can already get plain white vinegar at three dollars a gallon.  That is why I think there are a great many more artisanal wine makers that vinegar makers.

I also note that some processes go only one way.  Often a bottle of wine will eventually turn to vinegar.  But never will a bottle of vinegar turn into wine.



"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #35 on: Monday April 13, 2009, 02:47:48 AM »
Due to my previous blindness and a fried modem, I haven't been around for a while.  Now, with eyes, and a borrowed laptop with WI-Fi, I am occasionally back.

The new thing here is, I have begun to accumulate the yeast froth from the various wines and drying it out.  I ought to have enough to do some baking with it pretty soon.  I hope it will do something worthwhile to the bread.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #36 on: Thursday May 21, 2009, 05:20:43 PM »
I doubt I will be doing much baking this season.  Our central air conditioning is out and what with the uncertainties of our fight to keep our home, it doesn't seem prudent to expend our limited resources which may be required for more essential survival needs than keeping cool.

But the home ferments, as wine, save us quite a bit, and now that I'm reasonably experienced, requires practically no labor.  I imagine there are some people who have some sort of difficulty with yeast, but I have detected no such difficulty in myself, and I doubt that such yeast difficulties are particularly widespread.

I do not even filter my wines, or use any flocculation procedures to clarify it.  So it may have some turbidity.  It just means that you are drinking some of the wild yeasts.  Added nutrition from my point of view.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #37 on: Monday July 13, 2009, 09:46:52 PM »
I have not historically been a big fan of sushi.  Yet I eat regularly in a Chinese Buffet which has a sushi section.  Recently, all the things I like best were in short supply, at least in part due to my own efforts.  Rather than wait for them to be replenished, I took a hard look at the fare in the sushi area.  I chose some shredded seaweed on a bed of rice in some sort of edible shell.  The seaweed was a fairly intense bright green.  After the first tentative nibble, although I was already reasonably full, I literally wolfed it down and went back to the sushi bar to get three more.  I ate them with considerable dispatch as well.  Clearly, there was some component of this dish which my body craved.  The question was what and why?  I have concluded that I was very short of iodine.  Kelp and other seaweeds are high in this trace mineral in organic and digestible form.  Now that I have come across this new food item, I expect I will be adding it to my meal each time.

As to Shmooo, I still eat it every day, but I am no longer consuming the half pound a day that I was during the loading experiments last year.  My intake is somewhere between an eighth and a quarter pound, at a guess.  I can't really tell with precision.  I do quite a bit of nibbling in the garden.  Some days, I may still be eating a half pound.  I don't think that will happen with the seaweed sushi.  No matter how much I currently crave it, I expect that when the thyroid gets its' fill of iodine, my body will no longer be ravenous for it.  Time will tell.

I have not been learning too much with my wines lately.  They have just become so easy to do, that I do it without much thought or imagination.  I have lost interest in making Kombucha, largely because the fermented tea is much milder than the wines.  I have no need for distilled spirits, but it seems sort of a waste of time to ferment something, and get only a percent or two of alcohol at most.  My wines seem to be somewhere in the 5 to 8% alcohol range.
« Last Edit: Monday July 13, 2009, 09:56:01 PM by anthropositor »
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #38 on: Saturday September 05, 2009, 02:13:57 AM »
I had another drink of my fermented Shmooo tea.  I didn't date the bottle, but it is about two months old.  It showed no sign of producing the Kombucha "mushroom" but I expect that even with tea, that may take longer to form.  I may have had it in an earlier batch of tea, but my wife threw it out without asking, thinking it must be bad.

Frankly, fermented tea is probably my least favorite way of consuming Shmooo.  I had about a gallon, and it was perhaps two percent alcohol.  I poured it on a 1 square meter patch of young Shmooo about eight inches tall.  I did add some spray.  Later in the day, the Shmooo did not appear unhappy.  I'll know more in a week.

I'm glad the Shmooo goes so well in my coffee, since that is almost invariably how I start my day.  I haven't been a regular drinker of tea for a long time.  I may try mixing the Shmooo with black tea, drinking it hot.  But with the daily coffee, my wife notices when it is not there.  She doesn't eat plain fresh raw or dry Shmooo as much as I do.  Her favorite ways are in soups, and in the breading, marinades and dry rubs for roast fowl, barbecued fish or mixed right in with burgers.  I do a lot of outdoor grilling from spring through fall.

My wife is amazed at how little food satisfies me these days.  She too is far less hungry than she used to be.  So when she cooks, making the same portions she always has, we have to save some leftovers for another meal.  Traditionally, my wife has been one always to serve a full plate.  It amazes me now that I used to eat a full plate like that.  Now I need about as much as the British Chef, Gordon Ramsay on "The F Word" puts on the plate.  This is a reality cooking show which can be quite interesting if you are not overly sensitive about that other F word, with which his dialogue is liberally seasoned. 

He is not only skilled in the culinary arts, but also has an excellent handle on the rest of the management skills that go into the running of a fine restaurant.  A couple of years ago, I would have said, how can he serve so little food in the middle of those big square plates, but now his portions seem just about right.

Maybe this is why I am over forty pounds lighter than I was twenty years ago.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #39 on: Friday November 13, 2009, 01:03:02 AM »
Having just finished something on the Shmooo thread, because I was hunkered down over a bookshelf in a Wi-Fi establishment and was getting exceedingly uncomfortable, I was ready to leave.  But a table opened up.  Now, more comfortable, I can say a bit more about the meat rabbits I have been learning to raise.

Once, maybe a quarter of a century ago, I traded three pounds of my jerky to a farmer for a Black Angus calf.  I had read about Kobe beef from Japan and was wondering if I could produce something similar to this meat I had never tasted, which was, even in those days, selling for in excess of a hundred dollars a pound.

Well, I did indeed raise that calf to about a thousand pounds or so before I cut it up, and did produce the best beef I had ever tasted.  I can't tell you if it was as good as Kobe beef, because I still have never tasted the real thing.  All I can say is that I have been a steak chef, and have eaten some of the best Chateaubriand in the country.  This was better.  It may have cost me about six dollars a pound for the finished meat.

But now that I am older than original sin, I can't be raising thousand pound animals.  Yet still, I am a carnivore, and I hate to mow the grass and weeds, and I have a big crop of Shmooo.  More than I can readily consume no matter how much I like it.  Rabbits were the perfect animal to convert my Shmooo and other foliage into high quality meat.  Well, so far I haven't eaten any of the rabbits.  I may not until spring.

But it also occurred to me that one of the things that made that Angus steer so good was that it got a certain amount of beer in its rations, and toward the last, it was getting a gallon of Rhine wine every three days.

But since I ferment my own wines these days, and am now raising these meat rabbits with my experimental Shmooo and other greens, I have begun to add some of the wine to their water supply.

The rabbits didn't quite know what to think at first, but they have taken to it.  I didn't quite know the dilution, but I just krept up on it until one of the rabbits began to seem a little  wobbly on its feet, then cut back.  The rabbits seem pretty happy so far.  If they turn out as well as that steer, between the Shmooo and the home-fermented wine, I will have produced the best rabbit meat on the planet.   
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline Bamawing

  • Administrator
  • Administrative Bleeper!
  • *
  • Posts: 8636
  • Gender: Female
  • Token Nutcase :D
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #40 on: Monday November 16, 2009, 12:57:27 PM »
It sounds delicious, Anthro...

I wish I had some shmooo seeds. I feel actually guilty about the state of my garden boxes on the terrace... most Germans love growing things, and they have beautiful gardens. I have two dead bushes and some ivy that starts dying every time I try to water it.

I am allergic to ivy, but since it's the only green thing in my boxes, so far I've left it alone.
« Last Edit: Monday November 16, 2009, 01:00:23 PM by Bamawing »
I'm more confused than a mood ring on a paranoid bipolar schizophrenic chameleon in a bag of skittles!

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday November 17, 2009, 11:57:50 PM »
I am still learning about the climatic conditions required for Shmooo.  I planted extremely early in Spring in the hopes of getting a crop to go to seed, then harvest, and plant another crop in time for it also to go to seed.  It didn't happen that way.  The first crop would not go to seed, even after three or four months.  So I planted more.  Now, all crops are going to seed at the same time.  The oldest are producing larger heavier seed stalks by far.  Oddly, the rabbits want the leafy material far more than the seed stalks.  Of course, they still have not really matured.  That is to say, many of the flowers are still on the stalks.  There is a slight bitterness to them that is certainly not present in mature harvested seed that has been well threshed.  It may be a few more weeks before I know more about that.

Last year I did not harvest the seed.  I just let it fall with the plants for a natural planting.  That does not appear to work here.  It may be that a few hard freezes pretty much kills the seed.  We are perhaps only a week to a month from a good hard freeze here now, at which time I will have several days of unrelenting work, harvesting both seed and leafy material.  Today, I harvested a lot of unripe seed stalks for further experimentation.  Then I tore up half the plants I had clipped and threw them to the rabbits.

I know I can eat a half pound of the leafy material day after day without ill effects.  (I should note here that I recently described an incident which was pretty alarming, involving dizziness and falling down and regurgitation).  While I am still speculating what caused that, it certainly wasn't the Shmooo.  I am not doing loading experiments with it now, and haven't been for some months.  Lately, I have been eating only a few leaves to a few dozen on any given day.  I have even gone a week or so without any.

Now, since that rather dramatic incident, I have been eating some of the unripe seed stalks, but very tentatively.  I'm not sure exactly where I put that report.  Maybe over on the fighting for the property thread.  I'm not going to go look for it because my laptop is acting skittish and I don't want to lose what I have written.  But it must be in the last half dozen things in my posts.  I'm still evaluating what that was all about.  My guess is that it has more to do with the stresses of the battle for my house and acreage, which has been going for thirteen months, and could easily go for another year.  Such things do take their toll.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #42 on: Saturday March 20, 2010, 12:15:23 AM »
With the world-wide Depression, my interest in rabbits has sharpened a lot.  So much that it needs its' own thread here in nutrition.  So look for it soon.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #43 on: Monday April 19, 2010, 08:43:12 PM »
Along with all the Shmooo the rabbits have been eating is a considerable amount of wine and Hard cider that they have been drinking.  It is hard to measure exactly how much they drink and how much leaks from their drink bottles.  But they are drinking more wine and cider than water, and ultimately I may need to cut back on the wine and cider.  Two considerations come to mind.  First, the liver of that New Year's rabbit seemed to me to be considerably larger than I had ever seen before.  Second, I expect that the drinking may have some impact on the viability of potential offspring.  That remains to be seen.  I haven't yet actively been trying to breed them.

I have heard no reports of the cattle used for Kobe beef having difficulty bearing young.  But it could well be that the cattle grown for meat are raised with beer, and the cattle used for breeding purposes are not.  I have determined that rabbits in cool weather do not consume water with any frequency even when it is continuously available to them, when they are fed fresh grasses, clover and weeds.

Not all of the wine and the cider come out tasting ideal to me.  I am using wild airborne yeasts for the fermentation.  As a result, each bottle comes out subtly different.  The batches which strike me as not being perfect tasting for me go to the rabbits.  The principle is, of course, no waste.  My less favored flavors have a use.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis

Offline anthropositor

  • SkinCell Grand
  • Iconoclast of Ideas
  • *****
  • Posts: 1789
  • Gender: Male
  • The best medicine is caring and affection.
    • Eureka Ideas Unlimited, Anthropositor's Posts,   To Obama
Re: Natural wines and other ferments
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday October 13, 2010, 03:18:00 AM »
My wife and I have been refugees for about 2 1/2 months now, due to perjury and chicanery during the trial.  My lawyer did none of the key things we had in the works, for reasons that are quite inexplicable to me.  There was some "in chambers" action as well that I was not privy to.  Since the villainy cannot be accurately sorted at this time, I won't be writing further about it on the other thread.  I still make some wine, since it is economical, and since I have generated some new notions.  It turns out that it is possible to ferment wines without even the wild yeasts that I have been using.  All one needs are the appropriate enzymes produced by those yeasts.  Go figure.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it." Chinese Proverb.

"What all men speak well of, look critically into; what all men condemn examine first before you decide"-- Confucius

Pray to the Gods, for the Gods are not unless you pray to them.--Don Marquis