Natural wines and other ferments

[anthropositor]

There is a Kombucha & Kefir thread in General Health that has some previous material on this subject.  Also on my blog there are some essays on micro-organisms in nutrition.

My emphasis is on Spartan or emergency conditions.  What can be done without equipment or laboratory conditions and yet still be safe for consumption?  My results so far seem to indicate that the fermentation of moderately acidic fruit juices or teas or coffees is not likely to generate pathogens or toxins if reasonable care and intelligence are employed.  I think that the level of acidity is involved in the safety.

Cross-threading here for a moment, even cheese production involves certain acidifications in the curdling and separation of the solids from the whey.

But here, I'm hoping we will focus mostly on the ferments of acidic complex carbohydrate rich fluids.  I don't know enough about beer and ale to say anything valuable about their production.  And I am fairly convinced that the distillation of stronger liquors results in greater potential for abuse and health liabilities.  Certainly in the distilling of grain spirits a much stronger solvent drink is produced and the living components of the beverage have been destroyed.

It is in the milder ferments like wine, tea, coffee and cider that it is likeliest for benefit to occur without the same risks which are associated with the much higher alcoholic content in "hard liquor," particularly if it is regularly consumed "straight" or insufficiently diluted, or consumed in excess over short periods of time.

Who else is fermenting things for their own consumption?  Do your experiences compare or differ from mine?  What are the conditions and methods you employ?  Do you innovate and experiment, or follow the directions of those who have gone before, or a combination of the two?  Time for a glass of wine.  Cheers.   

[Bamawing]

We aren't doing anything yet, but know that I'm keeping an eye on these threads. As soon as we get a house with space (read: basement or workshop-garage) (we're going to build after I graduate, promise... about another year and a half now), hubby and I plan to take up beer brewing as a hobby. I want to do some lambics, myself, and I'll be uber-interested in wild (and tame) yeasties.

* Bamawing does the "I'll be watching you" motion to this thread.

[Uncle Matt]

Not strictly a ferment, but one thing I do like is home made fruit vinegars.

My favourite is raspberry, although I have got some blackcurrant too.

Goes very nicely on suet puddings, yorkshire pudding, and I've even made some sauces with it.

The best thing I like to do with it is mix it with boiling water and drink it.

Matt.

[LIGA girl]

Anthro, you mention varietal flavours in the other thread ...do you use specialist juice as the base for your wine, or do you use purchased commercial grape juice? It would be good to be able to get the variety you could get with using specific grape types, if that were possible ....

[anthropositor]

LG,
I try not to use "specialist" anything.  I am a "can do"
kind of guy.  I use commercial concord grape juice without preservatives other than Vitamin C (which the wild yeasts really seem to like).  As to the other consituents, they vary by mood and season and inspiration, in the fashion of the Cold Duck in a five-star restaurant at the end of the night, consumed with cold Chateaubriand on rye toast.

Matt,
Vinegars are ferments.  They are just further along in the fermentation process than wines are.  The alcohol is mostly replaced with glacial acetic acid.

Bama,
If I were into the beers and other brews the lambics would be high on my list because of their exquisite tartness, imparted by the same sorts of wild yeasts I use.  

I don't know why, but brewing with grains just seems more complicated and labor intensive than wine is.

Oh, and everybody, I just wrote a letter to my eye surgeon.  There is a copy on my blog Eureka Ideas Unlimited.
  
eurekaideasunlimited.blogspot.com

It is sort of long and technical to go on the Eye Surgeon thread in General Health.  But those of you contemplating eye surgery might find it of interest.
Anthro

[anthropositor]

During the past month and a half I have had almost no wine or Hard Cider.  Just a little coffee liquor in my coffee.  It hasn't had any special effect on me.  I just sort of forgot to drink. 

My blood pressure hasn't gotten all the way to my target figures, but I haven't had any really extreme spikes.

I think I am going to go back to a glass or two of wine a day.  I have been carefully increasing potassium intake.  I'm trying to simplify it as much as I can.  But the consequences of error could be dramatic.  Several minerals are involved in the balance.  Most particularly, sodium and potassium, but also calcium and magnesium and zinc.  And then there are the appropriate pH levels and reasonable ways to test them.  It would be cross threading to put that subject here though. 

Better in General Health on a new thread or on my blog.  Unfortunately, I don't think pH and electrolytes are going to spark a lot of interest in spite of their pivotal role in bodily function. 

[LIGA girl]

I am interested in hearing about your thinking & experiments with these things anthro. Especially if anything you do impacts on the area of controlling autoimmune diseases. But in other terms too i am interested. I now have slightly elevated BP after having low BP all my life, so for the first time ever i have to try to control it.

[anthropositor]

Hi LG,
This post sort of slipped by me.  I have forgotten to drink wine or the other ferments in recent, I don't know, perhaps two months.  Sort of lost interest because I couldn't think of anything new to make it better.

I haven't been working on immunity at all since I have no autoimmunity problems I am aware of, and of course I am my prefered experimental animal.

But blood pressure is something that I have been actively working on.  I still haven't gotten mine to the optimum level yet, but I have reduced the highs by twenty to forty points with virtually no allopathic medications.

I am not ready to talk about it too much yet.  Still have to trim the pressure more before I am satisfied that my methods will work on the long term.

And of course, the cataract is taking up a certain amount of my attention.  And the tooth.  The tooth is a biggie.  It could cost a couple of grand to fail with that.  I AM delighted with the results so far, and I am beginning to think that I may be able to stretch out the use of the bridge indefinitely.

Those unfamiliar with the details might want to look at the thread in General Health called Biting The Dentist.  This is a procedure that I have done long enough and have had enough success with to advocate it to others without reservation.
Anthro

[LIGA girl]

Hi Anthro

I will be interested to hear how you reduce your BP when you are satisfied that your method works ... though what works for one may not work for all ..... I really think that I need to get off my medications and that will bring down my BP, but that cannot be done overnight of course.

[anthropositor]

Yes LG,
I should revise and extend my remarks.  Those who have used a variety of complex medications for intractable problems do need to tread lightly and collaborate with whoever is providing medical input, to determine of there is any problem with possible interactions with medications, but my emphasis has been on reduction of added salt, which even in mainstream medicine is considered prudent.  And a careful and graduated increase in potassium intake, both in foods, such as bananas and in the form of potassium gluconate tablets and the use of potassium chloride as a salt replacement in cooking.

But this is not a case of if a little is good, more is better.  Regular monitoring of the resting blood pressure, and a pretty clear idea of exactly how much the potassium level has been increased, and the impact it has had on the blood pressure over an extended period of time is essential.

For those without unusual medical problems who are not taking a variety of other medications, I am thinking that up to four 100 mg tablets spaced one every four hours or so on a full stomach or with a full glass of water is probably reasonably prudent.  Even an eventual level of six tablets, well spaced through the day, with a couple of daily  bananas or other high potassium foods would not be out of line.

And of course, adequate exercise is certainly a part of the equation.  And if you happen to have it available, a tablet or two of potassium iodide per week might be in order, particularly if you live near a nuclear reactor. 

I would not go beyond this without medical supervision unless you really know what you are doing, particularly if you are taking a variety of medications with which there might be some synergy.  It is absolutely essential to keep regular track of what your resting blood pressure is doing.  I used to consider optimum resting blood pressure to be 116/76 mm Hg.  I am now thinking that even lower, like 110/60 would not be a bad thing.  And don't forget to keep your other minerals and trace minerals in balance.
Anthro   

[LIGA girl]

Hi Anthro

thanks for the information, and yes, in a case like mine it is a little different and I am not sure just what would be the best for me to do in terms of active intervention.

I just looked up my records and my last BP reading was 133/82 - not too bad. It used to be low, in the region of 110/60 as you suggest as the optimal level and I sometimes went lower and felt quite faint. My docs ask me what was my starting point so I guess that is germain for the purposes of monitoring my progress.

My docs always tell me to keep it as low as possible,  but the only thing they recommend me to do for that to hapen is to avoid salt, exercise and not gain too much weight on my drugs which are notorious for this to happen. I have gained some weight but not huge amounts, I avoid large amounts of salt (I add a little and dont eat much processed food) and I exercise whenever I have the energy to do so, which is mostly very regularly(5 times a week at least). I will eat more bananas as I only have about 3 a week now.

I dont live near a nuclear reactor, but there are power lines about 100metres from my place and a lot of people in my street have gotten cancer over the past 10 years, I dont know if there is any connection between that and my disease...

Anyway anthro thanks for all the suggestions, I appreciate them 

LG

[anthropositor]

Potassium Iodide, aside from being an expectorant, is only useful to load the thyroid after a nuclear accident so that the radioactive isotope I-131 will not be absorbed by the thyroid.  It is not a silver bullet.  The other dangers of radiation poisoning remain.

Opinion is all over the map about the dangers of living near high voltage electrical transmission lines.  As for me, I would sooner live 200 yards from such High voltage lines than two miles from a nuclear reactor, particularly an old one.  (I live about eight miles from a reactor.)

[anthropositor]

I guess I just crossthreaded a bit, putting something about grapes on the cheesemaking thread.  I lump cheesemaking and fermenting beverages together though.  Many of the skills and techniques are quite similar.

[anthropositor]

Haven't done too much in terms of doing anything freshly experimental in beverage fermentation over the past few months.  The pomegranate/raspberry/blueberry/apple has been so pleasant to drink, I haven't been able to think of new ideas I really felt motivated to try.

However, I have been making some plum wine, just a few quarts.  It seems to take appreciably longer to ferment than either grape or the above mentioned mixed juices, under identical temperature conditions, and using the same wild yeasts.  By appreciable, I mean double to triple the time, using the bite and level of effervescence as the sole measure.  I am going to try to speed it up by the addition of some vitamin C.

[anthropositor]

I now pour this effervescent multifruit wine over about a tablespoon of concentrated blueberry.  It makes the wine heavier and much darker in color.  Sort of strange though that by the time I have fermented these other juices, the total cost is about $5 a quart.  The concentrated blueberry is $19 a pint, almost eight times as much.  I would ordinarily choke on that price, but  considering the high level of antioxidants for my cataracts, I bought two pints.  Sort of makes up for the fact that I cant eat kale and spinach every day and forget to eat my carrots half the time.  Don't wait until you get cataracts or some other health deficit folks.  Get into the habit of eating the dark green vegetables before you have a problem.  And don't forget the orange and purple and red foods too. Carrots, grapes, tomatoes,etc.  I have never had much use for ketchup.  I am now adding generous amounts to most marinades.  The dogs get some in their food as well.  The zest of my oranges and tangerines go into my coffee grounds with the turmeric, bakers cocoa and cinnamon.

Having to pay attention to these cataracts may have indirectly made me a lot healthier, in general.  I think that is how it was with the skin problems too.

[anthropositor]

Nothing new for me in the fermentation arts lately.  Been working on other things.  I have been drinking the wine more as a carbonated Nueva Fresca.

Finally solved the moderate deficit of vegetables  in my diet.  I can eat sprouts of six different varieties, and have not yet gotten tired of them.  On the contrary, I seem to crave them.  I find myself devising new ways of using them on the menu.  Exceedingly versatile in the kitchen.  I guess I'm eating about fourteen plates a week.  That would be about 5 lbs.  My wife eats about half that, but she consumes more cooked vegetables than I do.

My blood pressure no longer bounces around the way it did.  I don't need to tinker with it the way I was doing for a year or so.

Hard to tell how much of this is due to the sprouts, and how much is due to other lifestyle choices, but there is no question that eating a high volume of sprouts has provided another boost for my health.

[itchychick]

Sprouts, hmm? Other than in salads and stir fries, I've never really used them much in cooking.

Those are interesting side effects you describe, anthro.  It's funny, I've just now returned from a nice walk with my little guy doing some grocery shopping.  There is a fabulous greengrocer who always has wonderful produce.  I've been really trying consciously to buy and eat as locally as possible, and in the summer, that's not too difficult.  Today, I was really drawn to the dark green stuff.  I bought baby bok choy, rapini, and something called "baby broccoli" at the insistence of my son (it looks kind of like the rapini florets, but without the leaves).  He also told me that he felt like taking a bite out of the cabbage on display.  I've noticed that I'm much more drawn to these veggies in hot weather.  I wonder why?  I was almost salivating at the thought of some steamed rapini with some garlic, olive oil, lemon and a generous chunk of feta cheese....

On the topic of ferments, there was a really long article in our paper today about how fermenting is becoming really popular amongst a group of nutrition-conscious foodies.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080709.FERMENTATION09/TPStory/?query=ferment+food
It's not the most informative of articles, but it is interesting how the "do it yourself" aspect of it is drawing quite a lot of attention.

[anthropositor]

I guess my whole emphasis for the past few years has been to eat more food that is still alive.  The homemade wines still have the live wild yeasts in the wine.  It hasn't been pasteurized or been sulphited as have the commercial beverages.  Yogurt, kefir, cheese, fermented tea like kombucha; all replete with micro-organisms.

Sprouts, also alive when you eat them, are the next logical step.  And, while I am experimenting in cooking with the sprouts in a variety of ways,  maybe 90% of the sprouts I am eating are raw.    Then there are some baking and seasoning uses. 

I notice most people eat bean sprouts cooked.  Raw works for me.  I can't think of a sprout I would rather have cooked than raw.  Except maybe broccoli sprouts which I would bake under very high heat until they were converted entirely to carbon.  Then I would occasionally eat some of the resulting activated charcoal.  I kid, but not by much. 

[itchychick]

maybe broccoli sprouts which I would bake under very high heat until they were converted entirely to carbon.  Then I would occasionally eat some of the resulting activated charcoal.  I kid, but not by much. 

Mmmm!

[Uncle Matt]

... broccoli sprouts which I would bake under very high heat until they were converted entirely to carbon.  Then I would occasionally eat some of the resulting activated charcoal. 

That said, when I'm home in Lincolnshire (and there are plenty of raw veg around) I'll eat a load of raw stuff. Carrots, brussel sprouts (at christmas), mushrooms (an acquired tase) to name a few.

I'm growing some more salad leaves and tomatoes this year. The salad leaves are going well. The tomatoes are a bit slow, but that's been to la lack of real sunshine, I guess.

The blackberry vines are doing well again this year, despite my ruthlessness with them at Easter. I may make some Blackberry vinegar this year.

Matt